How can we regulate guns ... ?

Okay, so comments on proposal #1 (universal FOIDs) were mostly constructive and positive.Let's move on to Proposal #2 (Message 801):: As before we can look at combining this with other proposals: Would address the penalties for not registering the weapons. This would be similar to Switzerland. Also speaks to penalties for not registering. If used in a crime, the last registered gun owner is responsible for the gun being available. Close the straw purchase loophole.There was discussion on the "document of training and competency for each gun" in proposal #1 (FOID card) so we could move it to this one as it makes more sense to be tied to purchasing of a gun.Thus we would have: Note that the "document of training and competency" could be issued by gun dealers if they have a small shooting range (many do) where this could be done.It also seems to me that such registration could include the location where the gun is intended to be kept (home, car, person, cottage, work, etc).Enjoy.

TIME TO GET BACK TO THE TOPIC -- HOW WE CAN REGULATE GUNS.See Message 801, Message 809, and Message 864The rest of this discussion should be on the other threadJeers will be handed out for further off topic postsThanks

That person is an accessory to the crime.Enjoy.

And yet the congress is charged with arming the militias or the various states ... so any arms needed to fight invasions and insurrections would be standard military issue arms and a standard ammunition for all.Having a mish-mash of weapons would make it harder to supply appropriate ammunition and more likely to have people get the wrong kind (snafu was a term invented in ww2 to cover this kind of problem).It is also easier to train a well regulated militia if all the people have the same weapons.See the way the Swiss Militia (Message 862) is armed and supplied with ammo. I also suspect that all National Guard units use same type weapons and ammunition rather than home guns. You mean activist judges have changed the amendment by the way they interpret it?This is also a recent ruling ... So you can't use military grade weapons in the National Guard, and no volunteers would be trained to use them properly in the Guard?Really?No, in reality this is the best way to be armed, trained and disciplined in the proper use of such weapons and the best way for them to be well regulated in a society.The amendment does not say you have a right to ANY weapon.You have a right to defensive handguns, target guns, hunting guns, no question.The right to mass-murder weapons is what is in question.Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : link

Not to me, for then there is no reason for the first phrase.What I see is the historical need to get the southern states to approve the constitution, and to do this that they had to allow the existing militias, that were used in the south to oppress the slaves, to continue to operate. Never said there was. Don't know where this red herring comes from, but the constitution is very clear about congress providing arms for the various state militias.Clearly those arms would be ones used for military operations.Back when the constitution was written there was not much difference between army rifles and hunting rifles, today there is a significant difference.Thus we can logically draw a line (or at least a grey area) between military arms and individual arms. We can look at the uses of guns by individuals when the constitution was written and ensure that those uses are still provided.A person that has a handgun for self defense, a rifle for hunting, and a rifle for target shooting has arms.A person with a bazooka is not rationally going to use it for any of those purposes.Likewise a person with a machine gun is not rationally going to use it for any of those purposes.There are extremely lethal military type weapons and ammunition that can legitimately be restricted to special cases and restricted from general availability for the general welfare and safety of the general population.The only real question is where that line is drawn.As society becomes more dense and concentrated in cities it is rational that more restrictions on socially acceptable behavior arise, including the use of guns.The population in the US has doubled since I was in High School, and will likely double again in less time. This causes increased social conflict, and guns are not a way to resolve social conflict.So we draw the line at weapons that can be loaded by quick change clips\magazines and we draw the line at ammunition that is appropriate for hunting.And we say that anyone that wants to train with and use the more military style weapons can join the National Guard or the armed forces.Enjoy

I think that many people have been killed when they didn't need to be. Upthread there are a number of anecdotal case scenarios, and in a couple of them people shot without question. One stated he was disappointed that both people were not killed, being stopped and arrested was not enough?I think that intent to harm would need to be demonstrated and other options weighed before I would consider shooting. Then I would aim to incapacitate\injure rather than kill.I've been attacked, and walked away from it.Some people use guns because they have them, not because they need them to resolve the issue.The intent should be more on stopping than on killing.And - for the record - anyone that relishes killing another human being - or that looks forward to it with relish, as ICANT's posts seem to indicate - is depraved in my book.Enjoy.

The topic is how we can regulate guns, not what some nuts youtube video says.What regulations do you think would be practical in terms of reducing deaths by guns?Enjoy.

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I have just gone through the entire thread to pull out what I consider to be proposals for how we can regulate guns. I have made no rating of how valid\useful the proposals are. If I missed anyone's proposal please let me know. Note these are often paraphrases or rewording to fit into proposal form rather than actual quotes. Nor have I listed the actual post. I've listed the author of the posts for each one except the first 8, which are all mine from the beginning of the thread. There is some overlap and I have not sorted them into categories.

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1. a federal regulation that all gun owners must be licensed by each state, with
   a. photo ID
   b. fingerprints
   c. DNA
   d. document of training for each gun
   e. record kept by FBI
   f. fees to cover costs
   g. license renewed each year
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2. a federal regulation that all guns must be registered in every state, with
   a. reference to gun owner's license
   b. fees to cover costs
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3. a federal registry (FBI) for background checks of people not allowed to have a gun, including
   a. previously convicted criminal gun users
   b. known irrational/delusional/unstable people
   c. doctors required to submit names
   --- people to be evaluated before adding to list
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4. a federal regulation that guns cannot change hands until
   a. each gun registration is updated
   b. the new and old owner's gun licenses are updated
   c. a background check on purchaser is run
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5. a federal regulation that
   a. no more than 1 operational gun may be carried at any time
   b. no more than 5 bullets for that gun may be carried at any time
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6. a federal regulation that states must require gun owners to carry insurance to cover
   a. liability and
   b. damages from either accidental or intentional use
   c. for each gun owned
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7. a federal regulation that all ammunition must have a tracking system so that the used ammunition can be tracked back
   a. to the registered owner
   b. to the store selling the ammo
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8. a federal regulation that both gun license and registration need to be provided in order to purchase ammunition
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9. An outright ban on the ownership of handguns and assault weapons. A recall of existing guns in those categories and strong Federal - not state - licensing of hunting rifles and shotguns (tangle)
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10. not just decriminalize drugs but nationalize all illicit drugs, give them away for free through neighborhood health clinics funded by redirection of all monies now wasted on the "War on Drugs" (jar)
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11. decriminalize assisted suicide so that there were better options than a gun - that would reduce US gun deaths by nearly 50% right away (jar)
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12. list\order weapons capable of killing based on their efficiency in achieving that end (kills per minute) ... from machine guns to pencils (yes a sharp pencil can kill) ... and if we then limited access to the top 50 killing machines, then we should logically see a reduction in the efficiency of killing -- meaning more people (vis-a-vis the Japanese schoolroom assault with a knife) would survive. (razd)
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13. identify other factors -- such as mental health care -- and take action in that direction as well. (razd)
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14. ALL states need to have the same set of gun laws (onifre)
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15. tackle the primary problem ... the Balkanism/tribalism that is developing in many inner cities for socio-economic and other related reasons (coyote)
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16. to prevent these random mass shootings, there should be enough information out there to begin profiling those most likely to engage in them. Certainly the FBI has a good profiling department and presumably has some good ideas of the characteristics and traits to be watching for (coyote)
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17. Control where guns are carried, similar to New York's laws where you are not allowed to carry a gun in public. (Taq)
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18. For those that think weapons are necessary to protect them from government intrustion then fine, keep your firearms at home and have them at the ready in case we need to topple some fantasized tyrranical US government. (Taq)
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19. If you are caught with a handgun/AR in public, with an unregistered handgun/AR, or privately selling a handgun/AR then you serve a one year sentence. We can make exceptions for gaming firearms just as other countries do. (Taq)
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20. If you want to use military grade arms, then join the National Guard and get the training, discipline, and psychological evaluations that ensure that you are of sound mind and know how to properly use the equipment. (razd)
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21. regulate the number of guns an individual can own, the types of guns an individual can own, the amount of ammunition an individual can own, the manner in which guns and ammunition are stored, require training and insurance, require psychological evaluations. (razd)
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22. a town could have a "gun club militia organization" with regulations and controls similar to the National Guard on the use of weapons, training,etc., and that such an organization could provide a safer, better controlled access to weapons of military grade than private homes. (razd)
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23. the gun show loop hole should be 'closed' and that 'closure' should extend to all private sales of guns (panda)
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24. straw purchasing guns should be made universally illegal, as has already been done is several states.(panda)
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25. Illinois has the FOID card: the requirements are not having been convicted of a felony, and not having been incarcerated in a mental institution. Its maintained by the State Police. (catholic scientist)
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26. If it was on a national level, then a person would not be able to simply step over the state line and by-pass the FOID. (xongsmith\panda)
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27. if you don't have state border guards, then there's nothing stopping people bringing in guns from out of state. Gun legislation needs to be national else it is too easy for people to by-pass. (panda)
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28. Make it a crime if your gun is used in a crime even if it wasn't you using it (even if its stolen). (catholic scientist)
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29. remove the depraved human and the problem will be solved. (icant)
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30. instead of removing the guns the same sort of restrictions that are applied in New York are applied across the board (straggler)
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31. rapid fire types guns and guns with interchangeable large clips of ammunition, along with the ammunition, can be provided by congress to the militias -- per the constitution -- along with the training and discipline in their use (razd)
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32. if you want to be part of a well regulated militia you can join the National Guard. State police and town police perform similar functions, and you can join them if you are interested in preserving law, order and peace in the towns and states. (razd)
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33. A comprehensive program to reduce gun deaths should have to look at ways to reduce crime in general, so that means that social programs also need to be considered. (razd)
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34. failure to disclose your guns results in a criminal record that now prevents you from lawfully owning a gun, and whether there are significant fines for failure to disclose, and whether confiscation of unregistered guns was included. (razd)
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35. Whatever the answers to the social issues only an absolute lunatic would look at such a situation and conclude that what the situation needs is a citizenry armed with guns. (straggler)
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36. we should only allow people to own black powder muzzle loading ball muskets since those are the arms that the founders were talking about. (taq)
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37. gun regulations would limit the damage such a psycho could do: If we limit magazines to 9 rounds instead of 30 then the shooter will have to stop shooting after 9 rounds instead of 30, (taq)
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38. If we want to stop gun violence then it makes much more sense to regulate gun sales, register guns so owners are held responsible, and limit the right to carry in public. (taq)
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39. things DC has done, post DC v. Heller would be possible candidates: implemented a prohibition on assault weapons, and a prohibition on large capacity feeding devices. DC also uses zoning laws to deny establishment of gun shops in the district. Guns are registered. (nonukes)
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40. one type of weapon is banned (or severely restricted), so this ban can be applied to other weapons that are virtually the same, especially in the ability to fire a large number of bullets in a small amount of time. (razd)
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41. just ban ammo clips and magazines altogether. (razd)
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42. 1 - Universal background checks. 2 - Mandatory Gun Registration. 3 - Mandatory Gun Safe Registration (tempe 12ft chicken
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43. check-ins with posted guards at the main entrance(s) to schools (similar to what exists in most government buildings) would be a nice addition. (Jon)
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44. drug testing, Include prescription drugs related to mental health (razd)
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45. legislation should be about who qualifies to carry a gun. (faith)
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46. Strict standards for qualification for gun possession are good too, training sessions being mandatory perhaps. Drug testing might not be necessary but doctors could supply information about whether an applicant for a gun is on psychiatric drugs. (faith)
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47. Universal background checks for every time a gun changes hands, otherwise it will be as ineffective as current background checks. (razd)
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48. Straw purchases should be illegal for used guns as well as new guns. Registration of the gun owner with the gun ensures this. (razd)
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49. If you have no problem with banning of certain kinds of weapons, then the issue is what constitutes weapons that should be banned ... such as assault type weapons that can load lots of ammunition, fire it at a fast rate, are are easy to reload with interchangeable clips of ammunition. (razd)
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50. part of the testing for ability to safely carry a weapon should be a determination of how much a persons beliefs are founded in reality - irrational beliefs, such as in government conspiracies, should indicate unstable mentality. (razd)
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51. Pass a law that there should be at least one armed person on school premises for every couple hundred children or something like that... don't mind if you want to require more training. Nothing wrong with training, the more the better. (faith)
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52. pass universal background checks on all gun sales, mental health restrictions, and set up a national database to track gun sales. (razd)
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53. define depraved person: someone who wants a type of gun that is capable of killing a lot of people in a short period of time and can be reloaded quickly with clips of ammunition, a type of gun that serves no rational civilian purpose. (razd)

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Additional notes:

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The Constitution guarantees the "right to bear arms." It does not say what those arms are, or limit Congress from making laws limiting the types of arms that can be owned (Rahvin)

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It would be perfectly fitting within the Constitution to ban all guns and limit the arms that can be borne to escrima sticks. The government would simply need to assert a State interest in limiting the destructive power of various and sundry weapons to preserve the public safety - it's all just a matter of determining where that line should be drawn, not whether any line can be drawn. (Rahvin)

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And of course, in the end, our laws and rights are not simply inherent, written in stone by some imagined deity. It's all just words on paper, held in place by the force of communal agreement that it is so. We have the freedom of speech because we all agree that we have the freedom of speech. The Constitution can be altered, limited, or even replaced given sufficient public and political support for doing so. We've been re-interpreting and even re-writing it for the past 200+ years. (Rahvin)

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Nor, apparently, does the Constitution (as currently amended) prevent states from enacting legislation regarding what kind of ammunition, and ammunition delivery systems, are allowed in the state.

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Discussion can now focus on the number proposal and replies made to that. For instance:

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Proposal #51 for "one armed person on school premises for every couple hundred children"

• would likely produce little actual effect, when the presence of professionally highly trained secret service and DC police did nothing to prevent, stop or reduce the Reagan shooting incident (see Message 771),
• did not work at Columbine, Virginia Tech or Fort Hood, where armed guards failed to prevent, stop or reduce those shooting incidents,
• would go a long way to greatly increasing ongoing costs of schools with little benefit,
• would begin to turn schools into armed police state camps,
• others have argued that school shootings are rare and thus do not justify much increase in cost, so
• one-time costs to increase security in the infrastructure of schools would likely be more effective, and,
• does nothing to address the social and mental health issues that lie behind such events.

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I have not included reference to proposals from Obama at this point, nor to the new regulations in New York (other than by reference in 17 & 30).

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Let me know of any further proposals you may have.

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Still looking for any more new proposals.Enjoy

Consolidated proposals #1

quote:

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Proposal #1 was (Message 801):

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1. a federal regulation that all gun owners must be licensed by each state, with
a. photo ID
b. fingerprints
c. DNA
d. document of training for each gun
e. record kept by FBI
f. fees to cover costs
g. license renewed each year

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There was some semantic quibbling over the term "licensed", so we can use "registered" instead. For argument sake let me note that I am a registered medical marijuana user (rather than licensed), and that this registration gives me certain legal rights that don't apply to non-registered users.

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As noted in proposal #25, the state of Illinois currently has an Firearm Owner Identification (FOID) card: the requirements are not having been convicted of a felony, and not having been incarcerated in a mental institution -- ie - a background check.

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The FOID card is currently required for any resident of Illinois to possess or purchase firearms.

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Thus it would seem to be a practical thing to expand this program to other states. This is a photo ID card, and their cost for this registration is $10, which is cheaper than my cost to register as a pot user.

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There was some reluctance regarding DNA and fingerprinting (altho imho they likely already have it) so we can drop those for now.

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Training and strict standards for gun ownership shows up in proposal #46, and thus these three proposals can be combined into one revised proposal:

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A federal regulation that all states have FOID programs to register gun owners in each state, with

1. photo ID card
2. document of training and competency for each gun
3. record kept by FBI
4. fees to cover costs
5. license renewed each year

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This registration could also be used to regulate whether a person can get a hunting license, as there is no "right to hunt" in the Constitution.

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It could also be used for "instant background checks" by calling the national registry or going on-line and using the FOID registration number to see that the background check is up to date.

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See replies to Message 809 for current discussion.EnjoyEdited by RAZD, : No reason given.

Consolidated proposal #2

quote:

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Okay, so comments on proposal #1 (universal FOIDs) were mostly constructive and positive.

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Let's move on to Proposal #2 (Message 801)::

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2. a federal regulation that all guns must be registered in every state, with
a. reference to gun owner's license
b. fees to cover costs

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As before we can look at combining this with other proposals:

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19. If you are caught with a handgun/AR in public, with an unregistered handgun/AR, or privately selling a handgun/AR then you serve a one year sentence. We can make exceptions for gaming firearms just as other countries do. (Taq)

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Would address the penalties for not registering the weapons.

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21. regulate the number of guns an individual can own, the types of guns an individual can own, the amount of ammunition an individual can own, the manner in which guns and ammunition are stored, require training and insurance, require psychological evaluations. (razd)

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This would be similar to Switzerland.

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34. failure to disclose your guns results in a criminal record that now prevents you from lawfully owning a gun, and whether there are significant fines for failure to disclose, and whether confiscation of unregistered guns was included. (razd)

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Also speaks to penalties for not registering.

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38. ... register guns so owners are held responsible ... (taq)

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If used in a crime, the last registered gun owner is responsible for the gun being available.

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42. ... Mandatory Gun Registration. ... (tempe 12ft chicken

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48. Straw purchases should be illegal for used guns as well as new guns. Registration of the gun owner with the gun ensures this. (razd)

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Close the straw purchase loophole.

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There was discussion on the "document of training and competency for each gun" in proposal #1 (FOID card) so we could move it to this one as it makes more sense to be tied to purchasing of a gun.

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Thus we would have:

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A federal regulation that all guns must be registered each state with:

1. reference to owner's FOID card
2. non-registered guns may be confiscated if used in a crime
3. anyone carrying a non-registered may face time in prison and criminal record
4. straw purchases banned
5. document of training and competency for gun being purchased
6. fees to cover costs

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Note that the "document of training and competency" could be issued by gun dealers if they have a small shooting range (many do) where this could be done.

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It also seems to me that such registration could include the location where the gun is intended to be kept (home, car, person, cottage, work, etc).

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See Message 864 for earlier replies.Enjoy.

The original post was:

quote:

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I'd like to shift the focus to ways to regulate guns:

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1. so that legitimate users can fulfill their needs
   1. hunters
   2. collectors
   3. self defense proponents
   4. security people
   5. police
2. so that a well regulated state militias can be maintained (per the constitution)
   1. National Guard
   2. constitutional militia organizations
   3. gun club militia organizations⁽¹⁾
   4. general population
3. so that non-legitimate use can be reduced from
   1. criminals
   2. irrational/delusional/unstable people
   3. people under the influence of drugs, alcohol, rage

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For the sake of argument on this thread, it is taken as given that fewer unregulated guns in the hands of fewer untrained people will result in fewer deaths (accidental and intentional), so the purpose is to achieve that end.

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Gun deaths, including mass murder rampages, will still occur even with very strict regulations.

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But regulations do reduce the overall incidence of these deaths, and that is the goal.

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So what are your proposals for gun regulation?

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and it also included references in the constitution to militias and arms:

quote:

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⁽¹⁾ - "gun club militias" would be all those groups that do not fit the constitional definition of militia -- ie as detailed here:

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http://congressionalconstitutioncaucus-garr.../...nstitution

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quote:

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We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

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Article I Section 8 - The Congress shall have Power ...

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To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

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To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

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Article II Section 2 - The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, ...

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Amendment II - A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

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Enjoy

TIME TO GET BACK TO THE TOPIC -- HOW WE CAN REGULATE GUNS.See Message 801, Message 809, and Message 864The rest of this discussion should be on the other threadThe topic is "how can we regulate guns" and so the question is what regulations do you think would be able to reduce unwanted gun deaths and injury.What regulations can we make to reduce the numbers of people killed in mass shootings.What regulations can we make to reduce the numbers of people killed in criminal shootings.What regulations can we make to reduce the numbers of people killed in gun accidents.First let me stipulate that I don't think regulations regarding the use of guns for suicide would have a significant impact -- some other means would likely be found. The only thing I can see for this is allowing medically assisted suicide, which would include counseling and approval criteria (incurable painful disease, etc). I don't see the rate of suicides dropping whether regulations are made or not. There may be more survivors without guns, but this is not guaranteed, nor does survival of one attempt mean further attempts will not be made.Second let me stipulate that I don't think regulations regarding premeditated murder with guns would have a significant effect -- some other means would likely be used. I don't see the rate of premeditated murder dropping whether regulations are made or not. Again, there may be more survivors without guns, but this is not guaranteed.I would also note that taking these two categories out of the statistics would reduce gun crime statistics considerably, and we could focus on the real issues where regulations might have some real effect to improve society.For instance I would think that hunters would like to know that other hunters are well trained in the use of their weapons, trained in the task of hunting, and disciplined enough to hunt without causing accidents, that they are using an appropriate weapon for hunting, and that they are properly licensed to hunt. This could be handled through the hunting license process and repeated each year. It could also entail severe legal action on poaching.There is no right to hunt animals.Currently there are bow seasons, black powder seasons and open seasons: would it be appropriate to limit the types of guns and ammunition loading systems that could be used in open seasons? Say I have a rifle that I have to manually load with 5 bullets instead of inserting a loaded clip, would that not be appropriate to use hunting? It takes a couple of minutes to reload, plenty of time while waiting for another deer, yes?Personally, if I couldn't hit my target animal with 5 shots, then I would consider myself such a lousy shot that I would be better off spending time at a target gallery to improve my ability. Would you agree?If I couldn't get a consistent bullseye - say I had parkinsons and my hands shake too much - should I be allowed to hunt with a semi-automatic gun?Similarly with self defense, I would think that self defense advocates would like to know that other self defense advocates are well trained in the use of their weapons, trained in the task of self defense, disciplined enough to defend themselves without causing accidents, that they are using an appropriate weapon for self defense, and that they are properly licensed for self defense. This could be handled through the self defense gun license process and repeated each year. It could also entail severe legal action that was not self defense.There is no right to hunt criminals, that is the job of the police.There is no right to shoot people when there is no direct clear and present danger to you personally. So what regulations do you think could be established to improve things?Enjoy.

3 Common-Sense Gun Laws That Are Popular With Everyone (Including Republicans) - Upworthy

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3 Common-Sense Gun Laws That Are Popular With Everyone (Including Republicans)

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America isn't nearly as divided on common-sense gun policy as cable news would lead you to believe. Here are three regulations Congress could enact right now with broad public support.

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So we should pass universal background checks on all gun sales, mental health restrictions, and set up a national database to track gun sales. Majority of Americans support some form of gun control.

quote:

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Here are 5 proposals that make sense to a lot of Americans according to the above poll. They also have the support of a lot of gun owners.
1. Universal background checks.
Supported by 86% of gun owners polled.

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2. Background checks for ammunition purchasing.
Supported by 67% of gun owners polled.

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3. Ban on extended magazines.
Supported by 55% of gun owners polled.

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4. Gun database.
Supported by 62%

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5. Assault weapons ban.
Supported by 45% of gun owners polled and 58% of people polled.

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The numbers speak for themselves. This is also the kind of response I get from gun owning\friendly friends. Your first link:

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Administration aides have said that the president is likely to call for renewing the ban on the most powerful rifles, even in the face of heavy opposition from the National Rifle Association. In the poll, 58 percent of Americans support the ban, which expired in 2004 after 10 years; 39 percent oppose it.

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I also found these survey results instructive: ABC Poll Results (page down):Q: For each item I name, please tell me how much, if at all, you think it contributes to gun violence in this country:

• the availability of semi-automatic handguns? NET Great deal/Somewhat 69%
• the availability of assault weapons? NET Great deal/Somewhat 73%
• the availability of high-capacity ammunition clips? NET Great deal/Somewhat 70%
• inadequate background checks before guns are sold? NET Great deal/Somewhat 83%
• violence in TV programs, movies and video games? NET Great deal/Somewhat 72%
• inadequate treatment of mentally ill people? NET Great deal/Somewhat 85%
• lack of individual responsibility by gun owners? NET Great deal/Somewhat 83%

Enjoy