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Author | Topic: How can Biologists believe in the ToE? | |||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17987 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
So lets deal with your points.
quote: So here you feel free to proclaim that an entire field of science - and one which you don't understand - is wrong. Geologists don't use strict uniformitarianism and haven't for some time. The only place you are likely to find it now is in YEC arguments for a young Earth.Biology doesn't need any "drastic environmental changes" that are rejected by geologists - in fact geology is a major source of evidence for the nature of the environment. ANd there are no plausible major environmental changes that could even theoretically disrupt radiometric dating. The only contradiction is in your imagination. quote: Behe's argument relies on a simplistic model of evolution. Mueller, using a more realistic model predicted that evolution would produce irreducible complexity, decades before Behe wrote his book. There's at least one experiment where a two-part system has evolved in the laboratory and a theoretical studiy using a computer model (AVIDA) has also demonstrated the evolution of irreducible complexity.
quote: Polystrate fossils - those that actually exist - are adequately explained by geology.Every out-of-place artifact I know of has a questionable provenance - there is no reliable record of where they were found. One "the Coso artifact" turned out to be the remains of a spark plug - it was even possible to identify the manufacturer. Angular unconformities are evidence for an old Earth. There are no confirmed human footprints found alongside dinosaur footprints. quote: If some dinosaurs (other than birds) had managed to survive the KT extinction and live on to modern times it would have no signfiicant effect on evolutionary theory at all.
quote: There are many transitional fossils and that article is nowhere near exhaustive. And it DOES list several examples of invertebrate transitions. DId you read it at all ?
quote: The first article is a pack of nonsense. I really wish that more creationists would pay attention to Dembski's saner utterances. At least he has some idea of how to frame a probability argument. The probability argument - which I assume is the one you refer to - assumes a single attempt with a single successful outcome, accomplished by pure random combination. As such it is simply a strawman. The second article has the same flaws.
quote: The talkorigins article is hardly an apologetic. The section you quote points out that order to disorder does occur naturally without an intelligent agent or information "embedded" in nature.
quote: It seems that they exclude it because they are listing examples where no intelligent agent is involved.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17987 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
quote: While an appeal to authority is not strictly a valid logical argument it is certainly a rational argument where the authorities are appropriate. In this case we are talking about an entire scientific field. The only "wild assertion" seems to be your assertion that geology and evolutionary biology require differing conditions - something you haven't offered any support for at all.
quote: PE is about modes of speciation, based on Mayr's work. And it was published well after Muller's work. IF you understood PE you wouldn't even mention it. Muller's 1918 Genetic variability, twin hybrids and constant hybrids, in a case of balanced lethal factors is online and free. This section is relevant:
thus a complicated machine was gradually built up whose effective working was dependent upon the interlocking action of very numerous different elementary parts or factors, and many of the characters and factors which, when new, were originally merely an asset finally became necessary because other necessary characters and factors had subsequently become changed so as to be dependent on the former. It must result, in consequence, that a dropping out of, or even a slight change in any one of these parts is very likely to disturb fatally the whole machinery; for this reason we should expect very many, if not most, mutations to result in lethal factors, and of the rest, the majority should be “semi-lethal” or at least disadvantageous in the struggle for life, and likely to set wrong
(emphasis in original p464any delicately balanced system, such as the reproductive system His 1939 Nature article "Reversibility in evolution considered from the standpoint of genetics." is available on line, but must be purchased.
quote:You mean like the links you used to show that there were polystrate fossils ? Oh, right. You didn't have any. But try this which deals with a 19th century explanation that still holds up. quote:The second link proves my point about provenance. The "chain in coal" simply states that a local newspaper reported the "find". For the crystal skull it states
Evidently the story of the skull's discovery is a fabrication
And do read the comments.
quote:But you've yet to offer even a good reason to think that angular unconformities could form in a YEC scenario, let alone that they are evidence for a young Earth. quote: Like I said. Here are no confirmed examples. All we have is the opinion of a few people all of whom happen to be YECs - and some of them pushing obvious fakes like the "Burdick track"
quote: How WOULD the discovery of living dinosaurs affect evolutionary theory ? It might let us fill in some details about dinosaur evolution because we can get more information from living specimens then we can from fossils, but that's about it. The reason the dinosaurs are belived to have died out isn't because evolutionary theory said so - it's because the physical evidence for living dinosaurs stops 65 million years ago. The extinction is a fact to be explained, not a theoretical prediction.
quote: Want to explain why you didn't notice all the examples of invertebrate transitions ?In fact lets be honest. You didn't read it at all. You just assumed that it was Kathleen Hunt's FAQ on vertebrate transitionals, didn't you ? quote: I'm certainly not assuming that you are as knowledgable as I am. But it seems you aren't even knowledgable enough to follow my point. So, you claim was that mathematics was evidence against evolution. Your claim was false. Firstly an argument that incorporates a mathematical calculation does not mean that mathematics supports the claim. To take an extreme example, if I said 2 + 2 = 4 therefore the speed of light in vacuo id 4 metres per second I could not claim that mathematics supported my claim even though the mathematics is completely accurate. SImilarly the probability calculations only validly argue against the scenarios that they assume. Since these are not the scenarios proposed by scientists working in abiogenesis or evolution all they have done is disprove something that nobody believes. The calculations are not valid arguments against evolution or abiogenesis even if they are accurate because they do not address the real issues involved.
quote: Since my only points concerned what the article said (and its nature) I don't see any need to provide further evidence. If you won't even believe that it says what it says then there isn't anything to discuss.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17987 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
quote: It's really quite clear. Look at Dawson's figure 41 in the text. The stump is buried in sandstone (deposited in relatively rapid events) which turns into shale (slowly deposited) near the base. That's one stratum. Then there's a layer of shalely coal (more shale plus coal formed from organic debris). That's a second stratum. Then there's a layer of underclay beneath (the remains of soil which the tree grew in), which the roots have penetrated. That's number three. Then there's more sandstone which the roots extend into. That's four.
quote: How are any of these problems ? It's not as if the trees are alive. It's not as if they were alive when they were buried. A hollowed out stump is dead - so what does it matter that the conditions that buried it would kill a living tree ? And without knowing what conditions the tree grew under there's no way to know what conditions it liked - the species is extinct. Why should it not have liked water as much as, say, modern mangroves ?
quote: There are serious problems with that. Firstly we have the remains of the soil and it is not restricted to a clump around the roots. Then we have the layer of coal on top. Then again the tree is in an upright position while a tree deposited by a flood would more likely be left on it's side. Moreoever these trees must have decayed to their present state (stumps -often hollow) before being finally buried.
quote: Muller explains why we should expect to see irreducible complexity which was the point at issue. Your assertion can be answered in general by pointing to the processes of evolution which even Behe concedes can make "machines" which are not irreducibly complex. And there's certainly no reason to expect Muller to deal with any specifics other than the point he was addressing. Moreover you are completely wrong on the issue of vestigial parts. Creationist claims on this issue have been shown to depend on insisting that a vestigial part has no surviving function whatsoever. However a more reasonable definition certainly includes the human appendix which makes at most a minor contribution to the immune system - a contribution that only partially offsets the hazard created by its presence. If you want to argue that the appendix is not vestigial because it isn't as dangerous as it might be, I really don't see that you have a case.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein. Take comments concerning this warning to the Moderation Thread. AdminPD Edited by AdminPD, : Warning
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