|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,902 Year: 4,159/9,624 Month: 1,030/974 Week: 357/286 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Choosing a faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Since Jesus is supposedly answering the question of when the Temple will be destroyed I would expect him to provide an answer or at least admit that he had no idea. Now, I say that the sequence of events he narrates is intended to be an answer - and the destruction comes at the end. Without that, the answer is something of an evasion. So it is not a question of “precisely when” - we get no “precisely when” for any of the events. It is “how does this answer the question?”. I say it does, GDR says it doesn’t (probably because he doesn’t like the answer).
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I'll try and be more disciplined and think before I speak. My apologies.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: So were Sequoia trees. Unless you can find the message in the tree rings, I would assert that the messenger created the trees indirectly. Social species were around long before humans.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
1. An assertion is not an argument. Unless you can find the message in the tree rings, I would assert that the messenger created the trees indirectly. 2. I was simply pointing out that your no-speaking-humans point doesn't hold any water. 3. John speaks about words. The challenge remains: Find ANYWHERE else in the Bible that even REMOTELY suggests that "the word' was Jesus. Here, I did your homework for you again:
quote:Word means word. Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: We are talking about faith. Once your money (or half of it at any rate) evaporates, you will suffer a crisis of faith. We're talking about religious faith. If you're going to lose your faith if you lose some of your money, you do not have a faith. But then we've already established that you're not interested in following the teachings of your professed faith. Who do you think you're fooling Phat? It's not us and it's not your god? Could it be yourself?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
It is then self-evident.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Your word search was thorough except that it only covered the New Testament. Lets examine the instances of the word in its original Hebrew and peruse the Old Testament.
Vines writes: TO SPEAKdabar OT:1696, "to speak, say." This verb occurs in all periods of Hebrew, in Phoenician (starting from around 900 BC), and in imperial Aramaic (starting from about 500 BC). In Old Testament Hebrew it occurs about 1,125 times. This verb focuses not only on the content of spoken verbal communication but also and especially on the time and circumstances of what is said. Unlike `amar, "to say," dabar often appears without any specification of what was communicated. Those who "speak" are primarily persons (God or men) or organs of speech. In Gen 8:15 (the first occurrence of this verb) God "spoke" to Noah, while in Gen 18:5 one of the three men "spoke" to Abraham. Exceptions to this generalization occur, for example in Job 32:7, where Elihu personifies "days" (a person's age) as that which has the right "to speak" first. In 2 Sam 23:2 David says that the Spirit of the Lord "spoke" to him; contrary to many (especially liberal) scholars, this is probably a reference to the Holy Spirit (cf. NASB). Among the special meanings of this verb are "to say" Dan 9:21, "to command" 2 Kings 1:9, "to promise" Deut 6:3, "to commission" Ex 1:17, "to announce" Jer 36:31, "to order or command" Deut 1:14, and "to utter a song" Judg 5:12. Such secondary meanings are, however, quite infrequent.(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers) Note the underlined. Those pesky liberal scholars were attempting to chip away at Biblical inerrancy even back then. (whenever Vines was written) I agree with the assessment that the Holy Spirit was the inner unction...the spoken word from God, and that Jesus, as God's character, could thus be correctly known and accepted as the Word become Flesh. Ergo, Jesus was in the beginning (before humans had evolved) and was made man (Nicene Creed) at a certain point in eternity birthed in time. The stories say that Wise Men came from afar guided only by a star. If Jesus was simply another human birthed by natural means, why do the stories suggest all of the attention? The only counterargument that most scholars (likely liberal ) will have is that the entire story was made up simply and effectively to control the masses. Except that it is the villain in the stories, Satan, who is really controlling and manipulating the masses."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
tangle writes: We're talking about religious faith. If you're going to lose your faith if you lose some of your money, you do not have a faith. But then we've already established that you're not interested in following the teachings of your professed faith. You correctly established my cognitive dissonance regarding my beliefs and my actions, though in my defense my blood sugars were too high back then and my thinking and reasoning were diminished. I may still be a bit of a loon to you, but I am striving to be more consistent and predictable of a loon. Who do you think you're fooling Phat? It's not us and it's not your god? Could it be yourself? Not sure I follow. What specifically am I fooling myself about?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I only covered the New testament because I was searching for the Greek word logos. There may, in fact, be instances where logos was translated as something other than "word".
Your word search was thorough except that it only covered the New Testament. Phat writes:
I don't see why a Hebrew word translated as "word" should effect the translation of a Greek word.
Lets examine the instances of the word in its original Hebrew and peruse the Old Testament. Note the underlined.
Yes, the underlined, and everything else you quoted, refers to actual words.
Phat writes:
Good for them. the Bible is NOT inerrant. Those pesky liberal scholars were attempting to chip away at Biblical inerrancy even back then. And you really need to stop maligning liberals.
Phat writes:
Substitute "message" for "word". Jesus was the message become flesh; He was the personification of the message. He was NOT, the message. So John 1:1 does NOT say that Jesus was around since the beginning.
... and that Jesus, as God's character, could thus be correctly known and accepted as the Word become Flesh. Phat writes:
Your "ergo" doesn't work. Jesus was an example of the message; He was NOT the message itself. Ergo, John 1:1 does NOT say that He was around since the beginning.
Ergo, Jesus was in the beginning (before humans had evolved) and was made man (Nicene Creed) at a certain point in eternity birthed in time. Phat writes:
It's made up. It didn't happen. If Jesus was simply another human birthed by natural means, why do the stories suggest all of the attention? Why do commercials claim that their product is the greatest thing ever? Notice that their competitors claim that THEIR product is the greatest thing ever.
Phat writes:
But Satan is NOT the villain of the stories (see Job.) That's just another lie that you've been sold. Except that it is the villain in the stories, Satan, who is really controlling and manipulating the masses.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo, replying to GDR writes:
Jesus doesn't seem to agree with you. He seems to be keeping score.GDR writes:
Piggybacking this idea off of the scripture, If you see that in there then tell me how many sheep and how many goats He was talking about.Matthew 22:1-14 writes: Matt 22:1-1422:1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. 4 "Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.' 5 "But they paid no attention and went off-one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 "Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 "But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless. 13 "Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen." Many could refer to most, or it could refer to ALL. All are called. ALL are invited. Few are chosen. Perhaps very few. Why? Because few choose to give it all up and follow the master. (yes, I finally agreed with you, Canuck! Now....on to our other argument:
ringo writes: The messenger is inerrent and His message is inerrant (pure and unadulterated)
Good for them. the Bible is NOT inerrant.ringo writes: Church tradition says He was around since the beginning. One could argue that only GOD and the Holy Spirit were around since the beginning, but even then Jesus was likely the only human who embodied it (the Spirit) perfectly. The contenders can begin lining up at my left, along with any goats who need to repent before they die. Jesus was an example of the message; He was NOT the message itself. Ergo, John 1:1 does NOT say that He was around since the beginning. And you really need to stop maligning liberals. I poke at them because it annoys them They really need to see the other side of the arguments and quit thinking their way is the best way possible. As for your assertion that it's all fiction? I agree with all of the beliefs except one. If you have any better contenders than Jesus, bring them up for examination. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Not one of the better parables. The "king" made bad choices in whom he invited. Then he behaved childishly toward the man who wasn't wearing wedding clothes. (Considering that the guests were rounded up from the street corners, it's surprising that ANY of them were in wedding clothes.) That "king" needed a good spanking. Matthew 22:1-14 And the punchline, "For many are invited, but few are chosen," has little or nothing to do with the story.
Phat writes:
Nope. You're making that up.
ringo writes:
The messenger is inerrent and His message is inerrant (pure and unadulterated) the Bible is NOT inerrant. Phat writes:
With church tradition and two dollars, you can buy a cup of coffee.
Church tradition says He was around since the beginning. Phat writes:
Which has nothing to do with Him being around from the beginning.
One could argue that only GOD and the Holy Spirit were around since the beginning, but even then Jesus was likely the only human who embodied it (the Spirit) perfectly. Phat writes:
No it doesn't. ringo writes:
I poke at them because it annoys them And you really need to stop maligning liberals. It just demonstrates that you are neither rational nor Christian.
Phat writes:
Look in the mirror. You're the one who refuses to ever change his mind.
They really need to see the other side of the arguments and quit thinking their way is the best way possible. Phat writes:
I have never made any such assertion.
As for your assertion that it's all fiction? Phat writes:
Contenders for what? If you have any better contenders than Jesus, bring them up for examination.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Admin writes:
Particularly on the longer posts I find it difficult to only use the EvC site. What I do then is to use my microsoft word program and copy and paste from the site and then reply to a specific point in word and then copy and past the final word document back to EvC. Can you describe what you do using Word that results in strange symbols? I wasn't able to duplicate the problem, e.g., see Message 37. Hope that helps.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes: But I think we all remain curious about how you explain your *something* that can't be investigated scientifically. It sounds like you're resorting to stuff like visions that appear to everyone present except the video camera, things that are apparent to people (who can tell us about these things) but that remain invisible in all ways to all manner of scientific instruments. Not really. For example if we look at the rise of empathy and altruism, or even consciousness, you and others claim scientific evidence. Yes, you can observe it happening but that still doesn't tell why it happened. That said, let's assume that science can actually come up with how consciousness evolved in the same manner that science has demonstrated physical evolution to be a reality. That still doesn't give an explanation of what the impetus was for its evolution. For example I believe I mentioned Chris Barrigar earlier in this thread. Here is a review of his book "Freedom All the Way Up' that outlines briefly his belief.
quote: Percy writes: I think we have a very different idea of what the means. God as a meme. I think you've got it.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
|
GDR writes: There can be a good argument made that acts of selfless love by an atheist are a purer form of worship, or service, to God than what is done by a theist.Percy writes: That was pretty much my point. However the key is selflessness so it can't be for some form of reward in the next life for the theist, or to be highly thought of by others for the atheist. Put another way, an atheist's motivation to do good is unlikely to be adulterated by delusions of supernatural rewards.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
|
PaulK writes: the Messianic stuff is all postponed until the Second Coming. I'm sure curious as to why you would make that claim The messianic movement was very much part of that era. It was hoped that a messiah, (a man anointed by Yahweh would lead them in battle against the Roman with the sword. Jesus argued that the battle was against the evil behind the Romans and that is fought with love and kindness. Examples are to "turn the other cheek", "Go the extra mile and particularly the call to "love your enemy".He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024