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Author | Topic: Choosing a faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Dredge writes: which suggests it could be a long time before the Messiah returns. Or they felt that the "good news" was so obviously good that it would be very quickly spread. (Not that they knew anything about how big the world was.) Do you imagine Matthew (whoever he was) might have meant that it will take at least a couple of thousand years? If not then you have an unresolvable contradiction, because this is as clear as day: "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." Didn't happen then and it hasn't happened yet, 2,000 years later. Sorry, you lost. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Percy Member Posts: 22388 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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GDR writes: If I am worshipping a god that that does not represent the actual nature of God, Allah, Yahweh or whatever then so be it. I'm sure you've chosen the right God. There are hundreds, probably even thousands depending upon your criteria, of religions. It isn't possible that they're all wrong, right? Certainly at least one of them, or at least some combination of parts of some of them, is right. Right? And some guy from British Columbia has as good a chance as anyone of figuring it all out, right? Look, all that matters is that you're happy with the choices you've made. Don't let it get all mixed up with convincing other people that they're correct. Why does that even matter to you? --Percy
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
tangle writes: Matthew had no idea how long it would take nor do I imagine he cared. He knew that the news was good and that all would eventually accept it. Every knee will bow eventually. Be it willing or unwilling, EVERY knee will bow.
Do you imagine Matthew (whoever he was) might have meant that it will take at least a couple of thousand years? If not then you have an unresolvable contradiction because this is as clear as day The problem with skeptics is that many of you knowingly or unconsciously look for contradictions. You crave them You need them. All that we are trying to get through to you is that the message is true and real. Granted we ignore many of your contradictions because in our minds the truth wins out eventually. In your mind, there is no absolute truth. No Creator (at least not the Christian one) and no supernatural Jesus. Perhaps you and I should invite GDR to go fishing. We all need to promise each other that we won't try and convince each other of anything while out on that special lake or river. We will simply catch fish for the families, share a beer or two, and thank the universe that we are alive and able to think. We can always debate later."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Percy writes: Not really, Percy. The right God chose us. And He is far from giving up on you. He actually likely respects your intelligence, rationality, and critical thinking.
I'm sure you've chosen the right God. Percy writes: No argument there. The human imagination is virtually limitless. Look at our old friend Stan Lee.
There are hundreds, probably even thousands depending upon your criteria, of religions. Percy writes: According to our old EvC sage jar, they are all likely wrong. To him, GOD was far far beyond human attempts at understanding.(If GOD existed, that is) And jar also taught a very basic construct.
It isn't possible that they're all wrong, right?If GOD exists, GOD exists regardless of any human logic, proof, or belief that GOD does not exist. If GOD does not exist, (He,She, It) does not exist regardless of any human religion, experience, or proof that GOD exists. (Paraphrased) My take on it is that science and critical thinking will never settle the issue beyond a reasonable doubt. And so far as we know now, no objective evidence is possible.
Percy writes: RC Sprould taught that chance (as a creative force) does not exist. There is no chance, no probability regarding this basic issue. It is jars construct writ large.
And some guy from British Columbia has as good a chance as anyone of figuring it all out, right? Percy writes: We all try and convince each other that we have the latest insights regarding faith, God, and love (for the believers) and Data, Evidence and rationality (for the non-believers). Many of us are members of both camps. I think that Percy really sums it up (as Forum Director) with this song:
Look, all that matters is that you're happy with the choices you've made. Don't let it get all mixed up with convincing other people that they're correct. Why does that even matter to you? Edited by Phat, . "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And remember that being liberal is a GOOD thing.
You are so literal it hurts. Phat writes:
I don't have your capacity for swallowing lies about scripture without thinking at all.
You have absolutely no intrinsic insight into scripture, do you? Phat writes:
Yes, he made the mistake of "choosing" the wrong people, as I said.
The King invited common people (Gentiles) because the chosen people (Jews) ignored the wedding request. Phat writes:
It's a really, really long stretch to associate the parable with Adam and Eve.
The clothes symbolize a covering, much as God needed to sew clothes (a covering) for Adam * Eve after they ate the fruit of knowledge and metaphorically "woke up... Phat writes:
Not a "false fact" at all. God Himself said it.
... "woke up" to the false fact that they could have the knowledge of their Creator.quote: Phat writes:
You're contradicting God - not an auspicious start to your attempt to enlighten me.
(which humans will never come close to having) Phat writes:
But the wedding guests were NOT uncovered. They were just not dressed according to the whiny King's fashion sense.
This was why they became aware of their nakedness (lack of covering) ... Phat writes:
There was none. He was wearing what people wear on street corners. If the King was going to round up guests from street corners, he should have had an ounce of sense to realize that they would be dressed like people on street corners.
As for the naked guy at the wedding... Phat writes:
Now you're just piling silly on top of silly. He was INVITED to the wedding. Who goes to a wedding thinking he's the bride?
... perhaps he symbolized a commoner with an ego (such as you?) who thought he could come to a wedding little knowing that he was metaphorically the Bride (Bride of Christ)... Phat writes:
I can't do anything but roll my eyes at that. Of all the stupid excuses to malign humanists.... the King cast him out as a symbol and warning to secular humanists who feel no need to commune with nor be covered by a higher power than their chemistry books.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Are you admitting that your nonsense about the messenger being inerrant is made up?
The messenger is inerrant and His message is inerrant (pure and unadulterated)
ringo writes:
So? Are you suggesting that the Bible was not made up? Nope. You're making that up. Phat writes:
You have it backwards. The only way I could "prove" that you made it up is by quoting the entire Bible and going verse by verse to show that it isn't in there. Why do you always fail to provide a rational argument that proves that I made it up, rather than deny deny deny? The way it is done is YOU provide a rational argument for your claim.
Phat writes:
My point should be quite obvious. Church tradition is worthless. ringo writes:
With a chemistry book, you can make a cup of coffee without beans. So what's your point? With church tradition and two dollars, you can buy a cup of coffee. (And are you adding chemistry now to your list of hatreds?)
Phat writes:
Maybe so. Most of them are also conservative. It's possible to be wrong about more than one thing.
Most of your Christian friends wouyld likely agree that He was around from the beginning. Phat writes:
1. I am not a "contrarian" just because I point out where you are wrong. Only a contrarian with a love of chemistry books would challenge such a belief.2. I love a lot of books. Why shouldn't I? 3. Anybody who reads the Bible honestly would challenge such a belief. Phat writes:
It's two. And you do not get to poll the jury.
ringo writes:
The jury is still out on that one. It just demonstrates that you are neither rational nor Christian. Phat writes:
Must you ask?
Must I turn the other cheek? Phat writes:
It's getting pretty bad when you have to drag us back to 2007 to avoid using your own words. ringo writes:
Will The Real God Please Stand Up? Contenders for what?Message 7 I'll ask again, contenders for what?Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
Who didn't? How many people predicted WWII prior to it happening. And all of them predicted it would happen in their lifetime. Nobody predicts wars in the distant future.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dredge writes:
There was no such prophesy ...quote:Looks pretty much like a prophecy to me. Jesus even links it to the prophecy of Daniel. Dredge writes:
Show us the misunderstanding.
.... you've misunderstood the Scripture. Dredge writes:
"This generation shall not pass" suggests that it will be a SHORT time. ... which suggests it could be a long time before the Messiah returns.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Sure he did. He QUOTED Jesus as saying, "this generation shall not pass." Matthew had no idea how long it would take... (Which is a bit ironic, since it already had.)
Phat writes:
Another failed prophecy.
Be it willing or unwilling, EVERY knee will bow. Phat writes:
That's what everybody should do - HONESTLY look at what the Bible actually SAYS. You, on the other hand, work very hard at turning a blind eye to the contradictions. How many beams can you stuff into your eyes?
The problem with skeptics is that many of you knowingly or unconsciously look for contradictions. Phat writes:
Not at all. YOU need to wishfully think that honest people have an ulterior motive.
You crave them You need them. Phat writes:
That's what Goebbels said.
All that we are trying to get through to you is that the message is true and real. Phat writes:
That's the problem. The truth WILL win out, and your lies will be exposed.
Granted we ignore many of your contradictions because in our minds the truth wins out eventually. Phat writes:
I have tried many times to get you to discuss "absolute truth" but you're afraid to do it. Is that because deep down you KNOW it's a ridiculous concept? In your mind, there is no absolute truth.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Phat writes: Matthew had no idea how long it would take nor do I imagine he cared. Like you, he did care and he did know, that's why he wrote that it was imminent.
Every knee will bow eventually. Be it willing or unwilling, EVERY knee will bow. ffs, grow up.
The problem with skeptics is that many of you knowingly or unconsciously look for contradictions. I can't speak for all skeptics but I don't look for contradictions I read books by historians that have found them in their hundreds. It's their day job. You can do it yourself by reading 'horizontally'. Read the first few verses in Mark, then Matthew then Luke, then John and count the differences and especially the contradictions.
All that we are trying to get through to you is that the message is true and real. To do that you need to show us that the bible is true and real. But you can't do that. But we can show you where it is wrong, contradictory and doubtful. Which, as you say, you'll ignore.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Admin Director Posts: 12995 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
GDR writes: Admin writes:
Particularly on the longer posts I find it difficult to only use the EvC site. What I do then is to use my microsoft word program and copy and paste from the site and then reply to a specific point in word and then copy and past the final word document back to EvC. Can you describe what you do using Word that results in strange symbols? I wasn't able to duplicate the problem, e.g., see Message 37. Hope that helps. Unfortunately it doesn't help. I already tried copy/pasting from a Word document in Message 37 and wasn't able to cause a problem. I wonder if it matters which OS you're using. I use Word on a Mac. Do you use it on Windows?
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
I'm on Windows. BTW I get those symbols for apostrophes as well when I read a post on email.
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Dredge Member Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
Read the link I provided in Message 1147.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: I said literal not liberal.
And remember that being liberal is a GOOD thing.ringo writes: My interpretations are not lies. First of all, anyone can interpret a book any way that they choose without lying. Second, my interpretations are shared by many believers. Whats more, I interpret the scripture without boirrowing off of another mans interpretation. Believers demonstrate that they have the Spirit by doing just this. I realize that you claimed to once be a believer and insist that you were even more zealous than I am, but you seem to have conveniently forgot how to use your intuition which is ideally in communion with the Holy Spirit. Nowadays you would scoff at my claims, demand objective evidence for my beliefs (or at least rationally critical thought) and essentially question your way into doubt and unbelief. Why you chose this path is beyond me, but perhaps it was your destiney.
I don't have your capacity for swallowing lies about scripture without thinking at all.ringo writes: Following this rabbit trail, if God made a mistake by appointing Paul as the Apostle to the Gentiles and "made a mistake" by rejecting His own chosen people, it would end up being an empty argument. Everyone knows God does not make mistakes.
he (the metaphorical King) made the mistake of "choosing" the wrong people, as I said. It's a really, really long stretch to associate the parable with Adam and Eve. Perhaps, but it is possible. The Bible fits together nicely. The irony is endless. Jesus was around since the beginning and thus created Lucifer even before Lucifer fell from heaven and became satan. Thus, Jesus was in fact the first Adam rather than the second Adam. In human lineage terms, Jesus was the 2nd Adam, however. The first Adam blew it (which was foreknown to happen) by allowing the woman to influence his thinking rather than Gods prior commands.Humans continue this pattern of disobedience time and time again throughout History. We never listen at first. We make mistakes and we learn the hard way. ringo writes: So now the metaphorical King is a whiny King, eh? You likely think the same way about the Creator. You mention that you would prefer He leave you alone and not fry your friends. You actually think you know how to run your own life and actions better without His help, even though it is organized religion that initially got your gall, some way somehow. But the wedding guests were NOT uncovered. They were just not dressed according to the whiny King's fashion sense. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Admin Director Posts: 12995 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
During testing I'm unable to find any characters that cause problems. If someone can tell me where to copy/paste a character from that causes trouble then I'll be able to work on this. I'm sure such characters exist, I just can't find examples of them.
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