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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8789
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 1351 of 1532 (901538)
11-10-2022 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1349 by GDR
11-10-2022 5:22 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
I'm not sure what you are referring to here.
I promised to get back to you on the Sermon on the Mount being written by Matthew after Jesus had been dead for decades.
This is from Dale Allison,' Studies in Matthew' and 'The Structure of the Sermon on the Mount' as used by Carrier.
"Allison shows that the Sermon on the Mount fits neatly within known rabbinical debates over how Jews could still fulfil the Torah after the destruction of the Temple cult. The general consensus amongst the rabbis was that good deeds now fulfil that (the Temple's) role (especially acts of love and mercy).That is essentially what the Sermon on the Mount says."
Allison says that the rabbis of the time said "Upon three things the world standeth, "upon Torah, upon Temple service and gemilut hasidim" (deeds of loving kindness). Allison says that this - "the law, the cult and social behaviour." He says that Matthew arranged the Sermon on the Mount so as to be "a Christian interpretation of the three classic pillars."
Carrier adds that he does this by simply assuming that the temple cult does not exist. "At no point does Jesus [...] explain what to do about temple sacrifice code in Levitucs or Deuteronomy.[...] In other words , it assumes the temple cult has already been destroyed. Which means this speech was written after 70CE. It does not come from Jesus"

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1349 by GDR, posted 11-10-2022 5:22 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5828
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1352 of 1532 (901539)
11-10-2022 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1310 by PaulK
11-07-2022 3:19 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
PaulK writes:
Really? Mark 13
Mark 13 is a prediction of what the Romans will do in response to a military revolution.
There are numerous reasons to know that . Here is Mark 13:14.
quote:
14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Now look at Daniel 9:27
quote:
And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
You quoted Mark 13:26.
quote:
26 “Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in clouds’ with great power and glory. 27 Then he will send out the angels and gather the elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
No. This is in reference to Daniel 7:13
quote:
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.
14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
This is about Jesus coming to Yahweh not coming to Earth. It is by the destruction of the Temple that this heavenly occurrence has transpired. This is a metaphorical picture of the enthronement of Jesus written in Jewish apocalyptical language. It establishes the resurrected Jesus as Lord.
PaulK writes:
Do you really think that the Romans are going to arrange that? Rather than, say, mass executions for the rebellious Jews?
No, it is about how the destruction of the Temple vindicates Jesus' non violent message.
The quote from Daniel is about the desolation of the Temple by the Babylonians. The quote from Mark 13 is referring to the Daniel quote about the predicted destruction of the second Temple. Part of that quote to is the suggestion to head to the hills which of course makes sense if there is a military battle but no sense if it is about the end of the world.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1310 by PaulK, posted 11-07-2022 3:19 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1355 by PaulK, posted 11-11-2022 12:23 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 1501 by Percy, posted 12-03-2022 12:40 PM GDR has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1353 of 1532 (901540)
11-10-2022 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1333 by Percy
11-09-2022 9:02 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
There is no infinite regress. There is an uncaused first cause. In the beginning...intelligence. why is that so improbable?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1333 by Percy, posted 11-09-2022 9:02 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1354 by Theodoric, posted 11-10-2022 8:39 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 1364 by ringo, posted 11-13-2022 1:52 PM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7848
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1354 of 1532 (901544)
11-10-2022 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1353 by Phat
11-10-2022 6:24 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Where did the "intelligence" come from? Define what you mean by the term. Define "God" too.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1353 by Phat, posted 11-10-2022 6:24 PM Phat has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1355 of 1532 (901551)
11-11-2022 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1352 by GDR
11-10-2022 6:21 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
Mark 13 is a prediction of what the Romans will do in response to a military revolution.
It’s more than that as I showed,
quote:
There are numerous reasons to know that . Here is Mark 13:14.
Which “predicts” how the Romans would provoke a rebellion - as well as alluding to Daniel which predicts that God would intervene to save the Jews.
quote:
You quoted Mark 13:26.
Indeed, to show that it is not about the Romans.
quote:
This is about Jesus coming to Yahweh not coming to Earth
I would point out that it indicates that Jesus would be seen doing so and that the elect would be gathered by angels. Also, Mark 13:20 indicates that God has “cut short” the tribulation to preserve the elect, indicating that the elect are alive on Earth at the time they are gathered. (And if the Tribulation is the Roman military response that would also point to divine intervention)
quote:
It is by the destruction of the Temple that this heavenly occurrence has transpired.
Neither Mark nor Daniel make such a claim (indeed, the Temple is not destroyed in Daniel). That is simply your invention.
quote:
No, it is about how the destruction of the Temple vindicates Jesus' non violent message
Other than wishful thinking, how do you derive that from the text?
quote:
The quote from Daniel is about the desolation of the Temple by the Babylonians
Nonsense. It is about desecration of the Temple by the Seleucids. Which had already occurred at the time of writing.
quote:
The quote from Mark 13 is referring to the Daniel quote about the predicted destruction of the second Temple.
Daniel does not predict the destruction of the second Temple. Daniel “predicts” the desecration by Antiochus and predicts that the Temple will survive and be resanctified,
quote:
Part of that quote to is the suggestion to head to the hills which of course makes sense if there is a military battle but no sense if it is about the end of the world.
As I have already shown it makes perfect sense given the Jewish understanding of the End Times. (See Zechariah 14 for an example).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1352 by GDR, posted 11-10-2022 6:21 PM GDR has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21264
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1356 of 1532 (901552)
11-11-2022 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1069 by GDR
10-21-2022 5:45 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
I have read many books on both sides of the argument about resurrection and I have come to the conclusion that without the resurrection Jesus would have been a failed messiah like about a dozen others.
Without the gold plates Mormonism is just another failed religion. Why don't you read a lot of books about Mormonism and draw your conclusions. They'll have just as much merit as your conclusions about Jesus. If you happen to conclude, "What a bunch of malarkey!" then keep in mind the equivalence.
I know that's not enough for you guys but so be it.
It's not enough for anyone. Piling your fictions bigger and higher doesn't turn them into truths.
Trump's success at convincing around 70 million people that the 2020 election was stolen makes crystal clear how easy it is to convince human beings of falsities. I desperately do not want to accept that hot fudge Sundaes are not good for you, and I'm incredibly receptive to claims of evidence showing how healthy they actually are, but that doesn't change reality.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1069 by GDR, posted 10-21-2022 5:45 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5828
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1357 of 1532 (901576)
11-11-2022 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1312 by Tangle
11-07-2022 5:35 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Tangle writes:
I suggest you read him and arrive at a conclusion based on what you read, rather than dismiss him as biased on no evidence. Non-Christian professional historians researching the historicity of the bible are as rare as rocking horse droppings. The entire catalogue of biblical commentary has been the preserve of believers almost by definition.
Frankly I don't have time to read his book. There doesn't seem to much on the internet about his specific polemic. Here is a non-Christian NT scholar, who does not believe in God, who rejects Carriers work in general.
Bart Ehrman
Here from Ehrman's blog is what he wrote in response to Carrier's response to his book. Ehrman to Carrier
Tangle writes:
I don't care whether you read about the subject you profess to be interested or not, I'm just pointing out that there is another viewpoint that you are discarding without reason. I did not ignore the wiki article, I've read it and several of the authors in it. Carrier's views are not surprisingly outside the Christian consensus, if they weren't he would be a Christian as is the overwhelming majority of the authors in the wiki. But they're not outside modern, independent analysis.
Well, your hero Richard Dawkins doesn't agree with you or Carriere either.
Ricahrd Dawkins on historicity of Jesus
Tangle writes:
The fact is, you have no facts. That's a problem because you should be able to show beyond debate that this guys actually existed, but you can't because convincing external evidence is totally absent. This was an important religious and political figure, but no contemporary historian wrote about him and no Roman records record him. Funny that.
Firstly He was hardly important to the Romans. They crucified many thousands. Do we have a record of any other individual crucified by the Romans of that era, even as much as what we see in Tacitus. The Jewish authorities simply had Him executed and got Him out of the way as He was stirring up opposition to the Temple authorities, and would not have been the least bit interested in recording anything about Him.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1312 by Tangle, posted 11-07-2022 5:35 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1359 by Tangle, posted 11-12-2022 2:31 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 1502 by Percy, posted 12-03-2022 12:53 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5828
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1358 of 1532 (901580)
11-11-2022 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1314 by Tangle
11-08-2022 2:27 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Tangle writes:
I'm an atheist remember, I don't believe a word of this stuff! I'm just reporting what the vast majority of Christians believe and what all the churches I've ever been in preach. You know, all that “Jesus saves”, heaven and hell, fire and brimstone stuff?
Just wondering how you know that the vast majority of Christians believe that way. Incidentally one of the leading, if not the leading New Testament scholars in the world is N T Wright. I know that you're not a fan but my beliefs are pretty much in line with his.
Tangle writes:
It certainly seems so for every Christian and church but you and yours!
That simply isn't true, and it isn't even true within any given church.
GDR writes:
but IMHO that is not at all the main point of Christianity. Christianity is a calling on our lives to live lives based on love of the other, or the Golden Rule works fine.
Tangle writes:
That's a rule not restricted to Christianity of course. In fact it's universal.
I've made that point myself several times as an argument favouring of theism.
Tangle writes:
So why waste all that time and effort praying and grovelling?
I don't see grovelling as being a fair assessment, but worship and prayer is to God, but not for God. It is for us. Worship and prayer should give us hearts that our humble and thankful and then hopefully change our hearts to something more inclined to unselfish love.
Tangle writes:
That's what you got from the world! The world you live in is predominantly Christian. They built that world. Nothing changed except you got older.
Actually the world I live in is predominately secular. Also, things have changed. The church is very different than the one we grew up in. Customs have changed and there is more thought given to what is being taught. Christian scholarship has evolved enormously in the last 50 years. For one thing there is a lot more attention being paid to the 1st century world that Jesus lived in, and a lot more attention being paid to what is in the Scriptures because of a much more critical reading of them. People like Hitchens have been a huge help because it has caused people to consider more deeply about just what they believe. As a result, IMHO, the church is in the throes of another reformation which in many ways will be as pronounced as the one 500 years ago.
Tangle writes:
You've no idea what you'd be doing if you hadn't been 'born again'. I volunteer for all sorts of charitable stuff now that the modern pressures of establishing a career and bringing up a family are largely behind me.
Again IMHO I would say that at some point you have been "born again". You have moved away from a self absorbed life to one that is now more about serving others. Being "born again" is not about all of a sudden believing some doctrine or another, (although I agree that many Christians still think that way), but about having a heart that moved from one that is always looking out for number one, to having a heart that is looking out for others.
Tangle writes:
Yes, but like those before you, you're making it all up to suit what you want to be true. It's non-biblical and non-taught isn't it?
Anybody can make the Bible say just about anything they want by taking some passage and going with it. As the OT stories of genocide show we can use God as an excuse for just about anything we want.
Again, IMHO, we should read the Bible as an ongoing narrative climaxing in Jesus as a Jewish story that tells of their progressive understanding of the nature of God.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1314 by Tangle, posted 11-08-2022 2:27 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1360 by Tangle, posted 11-13-2022 3:45 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 1503 by Percy, posted 12-04-2022 8:51 AM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8789
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 1359 of 1532 (901583)
11-12-2022 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1357 by GDR
11-11-2022 5:43 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Frankly I don't have time to read his book.
I'm surprised, you seem to have time to read NT Wright, Polkinghorne, CS Lewis etc…
There doesn't seem to much on the internet about his specific polemic.
You're kidding!
Here is a non-Christian NT scholar, who does not believe in God, who rejects Carriers work in general.
Bart Ehrman
I bet you've not read any Bart Ehrman either. He spends a lot of time raging at the poverty of biblical scholarship. He thinks that Jesus was a historical figure but does not think that there was anything other than mythology about his life.
Here from Ehrman's blog is what he wrote in response to Carrier's response to his book. Ehrman to Carrier
Oh yes, these two don't get on at all. Don't you think it weird that there can be so many different views by professional historians about whether this Jesus character even existed, let alone whether he was a god? Doesn't this give you any cause for doubt?
Well, your hero Richard Dawkins doesn't agree with you or Carriere either.
Dawkins is neither my hero nor is he a biblical historian, whatever views he has on the existence of Jesus are irrelevant.
Firstly He was hardly important to the Romans. They crucified many thousands. Do we have a record of any other individual crucified by the Romans of that era, even as much as what we see in Tacitus. The Jewish authorities simply had Him executed and got Him out of the way as He was stirring up opposition to the Temple authorities, and would not have been the least bit interested in recording anything about Him.
Romans kept records of all sorts of administrative affairs - including executions. Contemporary historians wrote about what was going on at the time but he's absent from their histories. The fact is, you have no facts, just stories invented decades after the supposed death that grow in detail (and contradict) over time. Exactly like a myth.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1357 by GDR, posted 11-11-2022 5:43 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8789
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 1360 of 1532 (901609)
11-13-2022 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1358 by GDR
11-11-2022 8:31 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Just wondering how you know that the vast majority of Christians believe that way.
Because I'm a Christian atheist, baptised and brought up a Christian, living in a Christian society. I attend births, deaths and marriage ceremonies, I'm listening to some idiotic Christian apologist on the radio now. They all preach the same message of Jesus saves, my religion is the one, heaven and hell, etc etc. They all chant the same prayers to the same gods.
Incidentally one of the leading, if not the leading New Testament scholars in the world is N T Wright. I know that you're not a fan but my beliefs are pretty much in line with his.
This is the problem. You've picked a set of liberal beliefs that you're comfortable with. Other Christians choose different beliefs from the same texts and fall in behind the apologists that support them. This is only possible because you have no actual facts, so whatever you prefer, you can find.
Wright is an Anglican bishop and a theologian, not an historian. He also does not believe in homosexual marriage and says he'll discipline any priest performing the ceremony. Are you with him on that?
I've made that point myself several times as an argument favouring of theism.
Yes, you keep repeating this error. The emotion of empathy is an evolved human trait found in all humans (and several other social species). Religion is not required.
Worship and prayer should give us hearts that our humble and thankful and then hopefully change our hearts to something more inclined to unselfish love.
That's the sort of embarrassing religious drivel that makes me cringe. You're wallowing in this stuff. If you want to do good, just do it. It's its own reward.
Christian scholarship has evolved enormously in the last 50 years. For one thing there is a lot more attention being paid to the 1st century world that Jesus lived in, and a lot more attention being paid to what is in the Scriptures because of a much more critical reading of them. People like Hitchens have been a huge help because it has caused people to consider more deeply about just what they believe. As a result, IMHO, the church is in the throes of another reformation which in many ways will be as pronounced as the one 500 years ago.
Again, you're only seeing what you want to see, talking to people that feel the same way and read the books that you agree with. The fastest growing Christian church are evangelicals, not liberal Anglicans. In Europe, the trend is away from religions altogether. The global child abuse scandals have opened many eyes. The reformation is towards no religion. But sure, if I could pick just one Christian religious cult to replace them all it would be Western Anglicanism - “mostly harmless” and you can believe almost anything or nothing much.
Again IMHO I would say that at some point you have been "born again".
Yes I'm sure you would. But it would be total nonsense.
You have moved away from a self absorbed life to one that is now more about serving others. Being "born again" is not about all of a sudden believing some doctrine or another, (although I agree that many Christians still think that way), but about having a heart that moved from one that is always looking out for number one, to having a heart that is looking out for others.
I just got older, financially independent and had less life pressures to deal with GDR, nothing more complicated.
Anybody can make the Bible say just about anything they want by taking some passage and going with it. As the OT stories of genocide show we can use God as an excuse for just about anything we want.
Yes, I believe we've been saying that for, well, ever here. It's evidence that the bible is mythology.
Again, IMHO, we should read the Bible as an ongoing narrative climaxing in Jesus as a Jewish story that tells of their progressive understanding of the nature of God.
And IMHO that's total nonsense. The bible is a series of ancient myths that have been redacted, edited, interpolated, copied, added to by unknown authors for political reasons over centuries. It's theology not history.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1358 by GDR, posted 11-11-2022 8:31 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8789
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 1361 of 1532 (901611)
11-13-2022 7:07 AM


GDR writes:
I'm not sure what you are referring to here.
(I'm not sure why this post has appeared out-of-order upthread, but I plonked it here again so it doesn't get lost)

I promised to get back to you on the Sermon on the Mount being written by Matthew after Jesus had been dead for decades.

This is from Dale Allison,' Studies in Matthew' and 'The Structure of the Sermon on the Mount' as used by Carrier.

"Allison shows that the Sermon on the Mount fits neatly within known rabbinical debates over how Jews could still fulfil the Torah after the destruction of the Temple cult. The general consensus amongst the rabbis was that good deeds now fulfil that (the Temple's) role (especially acts of love and mercy).That is essentially what the Sermon on the Mount says."

Allison says that the rabbis of the time said "Upon three things the world standeth, "upon Torah, upon Temple service and gemilut hasidim" (deeds of loving kindness). Allison says that this - "the law, the cult and social behaviour." He says that Matthew arranged the Sermon on the Mount so as to be "a Christian interpretation of the three classic pillars."

Carrier adds that he does this by simply assuming that the temple cult does not exist. "At no point does Jesus [...] explain what to do about temple sacrifice code in Levitucs or Deuteronomy.[...] In other words , it assumes the temple cult has already been destroyed. Which means this speech was written after 70CE. It does not come from Jesus"

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21264
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1362 of 1532 (901639)
11-13-2022 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1071 by GDR
10-21-2022 5:58 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Percy writes:
So why do you place so great an emphasis on a need to worship something? You cannot fail to be aware that many do not feel this need. Whey do you think you and others like you are different?
I don't see that I ever saw it as a need.
I think we can all understand simple English. You said in Message 966:
GDR in Message 966 writes:
Fair enough but as Bob Dylan penned "ya gotta serve somebody". You can worship God, Buddah Mohammed etc, or you can even choose power, money, sex status etc.
You're pretty unambiguously saying that everyone has to worship something. You're impossible to discuss with. You forget and often contradict anything you said that wasn't in the last few messages. What you actually seem to believe is only what you happen to remember recently saying.
Percy writes:
And what has this to do with what we were discussing? You said you pick and choose from the Bible based upon what you see in Jesus, and I pointed out the circularity. Your turn. To say something germane, that is.
I think the rest of what I wrote was germane and you only copied hat was kind of a throw away remark.
I was responding to your two sentence response in Message 1038. There was no "rest of what you wrote," just those two sentences. I left nothing out. I quoted it all.
If you don't have time to reply then don't reply. Don't just dash off stuff that makes no sense and forgets what was actually said.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1071 by GDR, posted 10-21-2022 5:58 PM GDR has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1363 of 1532 (901657)
11-13-2022 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1347 by GDR
11-10-2022 5:00 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
So, if you don't want me to keep saying the same thing then don't keep asking the same questions.
Tell that to a teacher. They're going to continue asking the same questions until you come up with the right answer. You're trying to change the questions to fit your answers.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1347 by GDR, posted 11-10-2022 5:00 PM GDR has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 1364 of 1532 (901660)
11-13-2022 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1353 by Phat
11-10-2022 6:24 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Phat writes:
There is an uncaused first cause.
That doesn't work. If the first cause doesn't need a cause, then there can be other things that don't need a cause. There is no basis for a "first cause", period.
Phat writes:
In the beginning...intelligence. why is that so improbable?
Unless you can calculate a probability, it is not "improbable".
It's implausible.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1353 by Phat, posted 11-10-2022 6:24 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1365 by Phat, posted 11-13-2022 3:59 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1365 of 1532 (901677)
11-13-2022 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1364 by ringo
11-13-2022 1:52 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
OK then. Implausible. That assumes, however, that human evidence eventually defines reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1364 by ringo, posted 11-13-2022 1:52 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1366 by AZPaul3, posted 11-13-2022 8:46 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1367 by ringo, posted 11-14-2022 10:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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