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Author
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Topic: Choosing a faith
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kjsimons
Member Posts: 822 From: Orlando,FL Joined: 06-17-2003 Member Rating: 5.3
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Message 1171 of 3694 (900650)
10-29-2022 10:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 1168 by GDR
10-29-2022 7:25 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
What an idiot you are! You are sent a list of links to the science behind how altruism is a positive and expected result of evolution in organisms like humans and you dismiss it. You are the problem, not science. Get over yourself and and examine the evidence presented to you. Accept you are wrong or present actual evidence that you are right. So far you have never presented any evidence at all about anything, just your beliefs and yearnings. You really need to grow up and accept the reality as it is.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1168 by GDR, posted 10-29-2022 7:25 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1172 of 3694 (900656)
10-30-2022 1:19 AM
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Reply to: Message 1163 by Phat
10-29-2022 3:47 PM
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Re: Untangling a 2000 year old myth
Phat writes: So what does any of this have to do with a 2000-year-old myth? We defend the idea that our belief can and should stand side-by-side with your secular humanist rationality.
No one is arguing you can't hold whatever daft belief you like.
If I can't trust my own intuition to at least some degree, I won't get far trusting ever changing data and random calculations.(speculations by the secular-minded)
What on earth are you talking about? What are random calculations of the secular minded?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1163 by Phat, posted 10-29-2022 3:47 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1179 by Phat, posted 10-30-2022 1:46 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.2
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Message 1173 of 3694 (900658)
10-30-2022 3:20 AM
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Reply to: Message 1165 by GDR
10-29-2022 7:04 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
I would say that He doesn't say when it will happen for the simple reason He simply doesn't know.
In that case Jesus would only be pretending to answer the question instead of honestly admitting that he doesn’t know where in the sequence of events that destruction would actually happen. I don’t think that’s very likely.
quote:
It isn't really about fulfilling Daniel but the destruction of the Temple would be a confirmation of it.
Since the Temple is not destroyed in Daniel that can’t be true.
quote:
Yes I've read Maccabees. It was 100 years of Jewish reign that didn't go as well as the Jewish nation hoped. I really don't get your point.
My point is that the Maccabean revolt was an earthly rebellion - even though you said it wasn’t. Daniel is all about the Maccabean revolt as you certainly ought to know with all the research you boast about.
quote:
Incidentally it is interesting to note that the 7 brothers all died heroic deaths, talked about an eventual resurrection and yet when they were executed the movement simply died. They had achieved military success, ruled for 100 tears but that was it.
This makes no sense. If they ruled for 100 years how can it be that the movement died when the “seven brothers” did? And in fact Judaism is still around and still influenced by those events (eg the celebration of Hanukkah).
quote:
Daniel 7 was a prophet who dreamed what is in that chapter.
No. The author of Daniel 7 was a supporter of at least the aims of the Maccabean revolt, writing around that time.
quote:
Jesus certainly saw Himself in the role of the "Son of Man" as He referred to Himself that way many times.
How many times do I have to point this out? The figure in Daniel is implicitly not a son of man. The term usually refers to a human being.
quote:
Yes that was the common thinking but it is not how Jesus or the NT writers saw it
But obviously you didn’t know about it, or you would have known that there was good reason to run.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1165 by GDR, posted 10-29-2022 7:04 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1226 by GDR, posted 10-31-2022 9:02 PM | | PaulK has replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.2
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Message 1174 of 3694 (900659)
10-30-2022 3:23 AM
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Reply to: Message 1169 by GDR
10-29-2022 7:30 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
But you quote it out of context and ignore the OT reference.
I didn’t leave out any relevant context and I pay more attention to the OT references than you do.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1169 by GDR, posted 10-29-2022 7:30 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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Admin
Director Posts: 13023 From: EvC Forum Joined: 06-14-2002 Member Rating: 1.9
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Message 1175 of 3694 (900662)
10-30-2022 8:31 AM
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Reply to: Message 1027 by GDR
10-18-2022 3:14 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: I know that for some reason when I use Word you get some strange symbols instead of apostrophes but I just lost a whole post somehow on the site so I’m going back to Word. Can you describe what you do using Word that results in strange symbols? I wasn't able to duplicate the problem, e.g., see Message 37.
| -- | Percy | | | EvC Forum Director |
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1027 by GDR, posted 10-18-2022 3:14 PM | | GDR has replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1176 of 3694 (900663)
10-30-2022 9:51 AM
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Reply to: Message 1033 by GDR
10-19-2022 6:36 PM
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Re: How can ultimate purpose come from anyone else, especially a God?
GDR writes: As I have said to Percy several times. all I have for evidence is the Bible, and to a lesser degree other holy books. (There is no evidence that points to the accuracy of any of the accounts in those books. It is belief.) You have evidence in the Bible but no evidence it is accurate? What would you say about a researcher who said this:
"All I have for evidence is my data, but there is nothing to indicate my data is accurate. I only believe it is accurate." How strong a case do you think this researcher has for having discovered something likely true about the real world? He has nothing, right? Well, that's what you have.
I do believe that the resurrection was an historical event based on the Bible, and for the fact that Jesus was, instead of being rejected as a failed messiah as what happened in all of the other messianic movements, was accepted and revered by the early church. There is no other evidence to collaborate the accounts. Paul created the Christian church by evangelizing about Jesus in the Jewish diaspora. None of those who joined his churches or even wrote about Jesus had even seen or heard him, let alone met him. A common literary device of the time was something of the form, "All these things I'm telling you are true." Luke used it:
Luke 1:3-4:
3With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
Luke provides a good example right in the beginning of the lack of evidence pervading all of Biblical scholarship. Luke begins by naming Herod, a figure of well established historicity, but then goes on in 1:9 to describe how Zechariah, a priest of the temple, was "chosen by lot, according to the custom of the priesthood, to go into the temple of the Lord and burn incense." Zechariah was alone. Luke then describes in 1:11 how "an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense." Luke tells us the angel was Gabriel. There could only have been only a single witness to this event, Zechariah, but he was rendered speechless until the day of his prophesized son's birth. How convenient that he only gets to tell the other husbands of his village of the prophecy after the fact. And how could Luke know about Zechariah's vision, including what appears to be every word Gabriel said. If we presume Luke or his community didn't make the story up out of whole cloth then the story was passed orally down through the decades. Do you see an ounce of real evidence in any part of this? Luke continues on in the same manner, the next part describing in detail Gabriel's appearance to Mary who, just like Zechariah, was the sole witness.
That and my rejection of the belief that consciousness, morality and sentience can come from mindless particles. Your entire body is made up of "mindless particles". Obviously consciousness, morality and sentience have no trouble coming from "mindless particles".
I realize that we can see it working its way through societies but that does nothing to answer the question of whether or not that is happening because of a pre-existing intelligence or not. That too is belief without evidence. What is "it" in this paragraph? Whatever "it" is, you are correct that your beliefs are not backed by objective evidence. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1033 by GDR, posted 10-19-2022 6:36 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1227 by GDR, posted 10-31-2022 9:42 PM | | Percy has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9146 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.3
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Message 1177 of 3694 (900670)
10-30-2022 12:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 1165 by GDR
10-29-2022 7:04 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
I would say that He doesn't say when it will happen for the simple reason He simply doesn't know.
I thought he and Pops were one. Your argument kinda hinders your religion.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1165 by GDR, posted 10-29-2022 7:04 PM | | GDR has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1181 by Phat, posted 10-30-2022 2:17 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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dwise1
Member Posts: 5949 Joined: 05-02-2006 Member Rating: 5.5
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Message 1178 of 3694 (900671)
10-30-2022 12:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 1175 by Admin
10-30-2022 8:31 AM
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Re: What does God want of Us
As I recall, one thing that Word does is to replace apostrophes and quotation marks with open- and close-apostrophes and quotation marks. I encountered this on a C Programming forum where someone wrote a simple C program with a word processor and the compiler rejected the quote marks ( " , U+0022, ASCII 0x22, 34 10) . I determined that the quote marks had been replaced with left double quotation marks ( “ , U+201C) and right double quotation marks ( ” , U+201D). Let led me to ask him if you used a word processor, which he was, and advising him to not do that. The same thing for apostrophes would be to change an apostrophe ("typewriter straight single quote", ' , U+0027) with left single quotation mark ( ‘ , U+2018) paired with a right single quotation mark ( ’ , U+2019). To test that, type in some lines of text using single and double quotes and apostrophes. Refer to Wikipedia's article, especially the table below the section, Quotation mark - Wikipedia ("Curved quotes within and across applications"). Does the forum software try to interpret apostrophes?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1175 by Admin, posted 10-30-2022 8:31 AM | | Admin has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 1179 of 3694 (900674)
10-30-2022 1:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 1172 by Tangle
10-30-2022 1:19 AM
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Re: Untangling a 2000 year old myth
Tangle writes: What on earth are you talking about? What are random calculations of the secular-minded? The Federal Reserve is a good place to start. They imagine that they can literally control economies through the raising and lowering of interest rates, the creation of money, and eventually digital currency which can be turned on and off. Though I am talking about finance, the financial crash will precipitate a spiritual and social crisis which will have the experts running for the exits as much as the public at large. This will likely happen sooner than anyone thinks. Other examples of flights of fancy generated by the secular mindset are ideas that we as a species will someday propel through the galaxies similar to Star Trek and Star Wars. Your spiritually blind guides are clueless as to the very basics of human nature which will prevent such activity. (at least until some very major social problems are dealt with first here on earth.)
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1172 by Tangle, posted 10-30-2022 1:19 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 1180 of 3694 (900677)
10-30-2022 2:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 1165 by GDR
10-29-2022 7:04 PM
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Michael
PaulK writes: The “one like a son of man” is more likely meant to be Michael. Seriously? Are you referring to the ArchAngel Michael? I fear that the Jehovah's Witnesses have zombified your brain.  If you are going to believe that Michael *could* have existed, why don't you believe the Gospel of John when it is clearly stated that Jesus *was* in the beginning? He was around even before Michael was created! You know what keeps you from believing? The critics (like jar) who attempted to demolish the idea of a Virgin Birth. If you are going to bring Michael up, at least be honest enough to realize that Jesus created Michael.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1165 by GDR, posted 10-29-2022 7:04 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Re: What does God want of Us
Theodoric writes: I thought he and Pops were one. Your argument kinda hinders your religion. Are you referring to Daniel or to Jesus?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
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ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 1182 of 3694 (900680)
10-30-2022 2:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 1170 by GDR
10-29-2022 7:33 PM
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Re: Camp Lake O' Fire.
GDR writes: ... tell me how many sheep and how many goats He was talking about.
The goats are definitely plural. With the sheep, it's harder to tell, but the goats are definitely plural.
Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1170 by GDR, posted 10-29-2022 7:33 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9146 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.3
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Message 1183 of 3694 (900681)
10-30-2022 2:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 1181 by Phat
10-30-2022 2:17 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Follow the conversation. I was replying to a GDR post.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1181 by Phat, posted 10-30-2022 2:17 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1185 by Phat, posted 10-30-2022 2:33 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 1184 of 3694 (900683)
10-30-2022 2:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 1179 by Phat
10-30-2022 1:46 PM
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Re: Untangling a 2000 year old myth
Phat writes: Other examples of flights of fancy generated by the secular mindset are ideas that we as a species will someday propel through the galaxies similar to Star Trek and Star Wars.
Some day we might even travel to other continents without the benefit of sails!
Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1179 by Phat, posted 10-30-2022 1:46 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1186 by Phat, posted 10-30-2022 2:34 PM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Re: What does God want of Us
And GDR was referring to Daniel.(not knowing) Have you had your coffee this morning?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
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