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Author
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Topic: Choosing a faith
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 1186 of 3694 (900685)
10-30-2022 2:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 1184 by ringo
10-30-2022 2:32 PM
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Re: Untangling a 2000 year old myth
 Touche
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1184 by ringo, posted 10-30-2022 2:32 PM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 1187 of 3694 (900686)
10-30-2022 2:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 1180 by Phat
10-30-2022 2:13 PM
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Re: Michael
Phat writes: ... why don't you believe the Gospel of John when it is clearly stated that Jesus *was* in the beginning?
It says no such thing. We've been through that before. It says the Word was around since the beginning and the Word is - duh! - the Word. I asked you to find ANY other reference to the Word being Jesus. I even did the homework for you. "The Word" always refers to words.
Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1180 by Phat, posted 10-30-2022 2:13 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1191 by Phat, posted 10-30-2022 2:52 PM | | ringo has replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17827 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.3
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Message 1188 of 3694 (900688)
10-30-2022 2:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 1180 by Phat
10-30-2022 2:13 PM
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Re: Michael
quote:
Seriously? Are you referring to the ArchAngel Michael?
I seriously think that is what the author meant. Which is all I claimed.
quote:
I fear that the Jehovah's Witnesses have zombified your brain. If you are going to believe that Michael *could* have existed, why don't you believe the Gospel of John when it is clearly stated that Jesus *was* in the beginning?
Since I am not suggesting that Michael actually exists, this is not a very sensible response. And I get the idea from the Book of Daniel, not the silliness of the Jehovah’s Witnesses (eg Daniel 10:21).
quote:
You know what keeps you from believing? The critics (like jar) who attempted to demolish the idea of a Virgin Birth.
I don’t know how you can think that. The Virgin Birth is hardly that important an issue.
quote:
If you are going to bring Michael up, at least be honest enough to realize that Jesus created Michael.
You have a very strange idea of honesty. It is my honest opinion that the author of Daniel meant Michael because of the way the Book of Daniel references Michael. At least have the honesty to admit that I might have good reasons for my beliefs - and that I might know the Bible rather better than you.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1180 by Phat, posted 10-30-2022 2:13 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1190 by Phat, posted 10-30-2022 2:50 PM | | PaulK has replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17827 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.3
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Message 1189 of 3694 (900689)
10-30-2022 2:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 1185 by Phat
10-30-2022 2:33 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
And GDR was referring to Daniel.(not knowing)
GDR was referring to Jesus.
quote:
PaulK writes: You will note that despite being asked when the destruction will happen Jesus never actually mentions it in his reply - which leads me to conclude that it is not scheduled until the end of the events. Nevertheless as you can see the point is the fulfilment of Daniel’s prophecy. I would say that He doesn't say when it will happen for the simple reason He simply doesn't know
As you can see, it is Jesus who - according to GDR - doesn’t know when it will happen.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1185 by Phat, posted 10-30-2022 2:33 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1192 by Phat, posted 10-30-2022 3:01 PM | | PaulK has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 1190 of 3694 (900691)
10-30-2022 2:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 1188 by PaulK
10-30-2022 2:41 PM
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Re: Michael
I will readily admit that you know the Bible far better than I do. I respect you as a fellow human more than you think.  Keep in mind that these arguments are not meant to be personal. I am just engaging in a verbal joust based on what I believe.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1188 by PaulK, posted 10-30-2022 2:41 PM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1197 by PaulK, posted 10-30-2022 3:22 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 1191 of 3694 (900692)
10-30-2022 2:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 1187 by ringo
10-30-2022 2:37 PM
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Word Up
If so, how could words be around since the beginning if all early humans could do was grunt?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1187 by ringo, posted 10-30-2022 2:37 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1193 by ringo, posted 10-30-2022 3:01 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 1192 of 3694 (900694)
10-30-2022 3:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 1189 by PaulK
10-30-2022 2:48 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
PaulK writes: As you can see, it is Jesus who - according to GDR - doesn’t know when it will happen. Well if so, I would say that there were several things that Jesus did not know. He did not know when the end would come, for example. My apologetic defense of that is that Jesus was God's human character and was bound by time and the limitations of a linear revelation and perspective on life. Only GOD in Heaven knows precisely *when* an event will occur. This does not preclude that both are not One. It only points out that both, though One in Spirit is different in the framework of time vs eternity. (at least while Jesus was on earth) Another example is 2Peter 3:3. 2 Peter 3:3-9 3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord, a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. In other words, (my take on it) is that while scoffers, skeptics, and sanctimonious goobers are waiting on God, God is in fact waiting on *us* to get it together so that He can wrap things up and take us to the next level (no starship needed).
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1189 by PaulK, posted 10-30-2022 2:48 PM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1201 by PaulK, posted 10-30-2022 3:28 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 1193 of 3694 (900695)
10-30-2022 3:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 1191 by Phat
10-30-2022 2:52 PM
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Re: Word Up
Phat writes: ... how could words be around since the beginning if all early humans could do was grunt?
It says "the Word" - i.e. the Message. Social species were around long before humans.
Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1191 by Phat, posted 10-30-2022 2:52 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 1194 of 3694 (900696)
10-30-2022 3:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 1193 by ringo
10-30-2022 3:01 PM
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Re: Word Up
So we are back to our old argument regarding the messenger vs the message. Got it.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1193 by ringo, posted 10-30-2022 3:01 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1195 by ringo, posted 10-30-2022 3:04 PM | | Phat has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 1195 of 3694 (900697)
10-30-2022 3:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 1194 by Phat
10-30-2022 3:02 PM
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Re: Word Up
Phat writes: So we are back to our old argument regarding the messenger vs the message. Got it.
If you've got it, why do you keep bringing up the same old nonsense?
Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1194 by Phat, posted 10-30-2022 3:02 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1198 by Phat, posted 10-30-2022 3:26 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1196 of 3694 (900698)
10-30-2022 3:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 1179 by Phat
10-30-2022 1:46 PM
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Re: Untangling a 2000 year old myth
Phat writes: The Federal Reserve is a good place to start. It really isn't, we're talking about god, remember?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1179 by Phat, posted 10-30-2022 1:46 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1199 by Phat, posted 10-30-2022 3:27 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17827 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.3
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Message 1197 of 3694 (900699)
10-30-2022 3:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 1190 by Phat
10-30-2022 2:50 PM
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Re: Michael
quote:
I will readily admit that you know the Bible far better than I do. I respect you as a fellow human more than you think. Keep in mind that these arguments are not meant to be personal. I am just engaging in a verbal joust based on what I believe
Then I would rather you avoided misrepresentation- as the rules of this forum required - and ignorant mockery,
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1190 by Phat, posted 10-30-2022 2:50 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1202 by Phat, posted 10-30-2022 3:28 PM | | PaulK has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 1198 of 3694 (900700)
10-30-2022 3:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 1195 by ringo
10-30-2022 3:04 PM
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Re: Word Up
Because your arguments are opinions and don't hold water...usually, anyway. Occasionally you make a valid point. 
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1195 by ringo, posted 10-30-2022 3:04 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1200 by ringo, posted 10-30-2022 3:28 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 1199 of 3694 (900701)
10-30-2022 3:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 1196 by Tangle
10-30-2022 3:17 PM
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Re: Untangling a 2000 year old myth
tangle writes: It really isn't, we're talking about god, remember? We are talking about faith. Once your money (or half of it at any rate) evaporates, you will suffer a crisis of faith.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1196 by Tangle, posted 10-30-2022 3:17 PM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1205 by Tangle, posted 10-30-2022 3:46 PM | | Phat has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 1200 of 3694 (900702)
10-30-2022 3:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 1198 by Phat
10-30-2022 3:26 PM
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Re: Word Up
Phat writes: Because your arguments are opinions and don't hold water...
On the contrary, you've never posted an argument against it. Do that.
Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1198 by Phat, posted 10-30-2022 3:26 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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