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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Phat
Member
Posts: 18353
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2029 of 3694 (905969)
02-06-2023 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 2023 by ringo
02-05-2023 2:29 PM


Mein Trumpf
Years ago, while in High School, I was a World War II buff. I bought that book. IIRC it was 1600 pages long and I never read it cover to cover. If you are referring to Hitler, I certainly dont see myself like him, though I can identify to a degree with the suffering of the German people in the twenties after the humiliating bill they were forced to pay from the allied powers. How would you feel, as a young man or woman, if you were born in debt?
Besides. as we always argue, there are two sides to every story. Hitler was, like Trump, a Populist. Hitler wrote Mein Kampf. Trump wrote The Art Of The Deal. Im sure if I studied further, I could see a bit of Trump in Hitler. I also will acknowledge that if the American people went through another Great Depression, they may feel like electing a Populist with lofty promises of restoration to greatness, but I also have faith in our system of government...in a two party system. Rationality has its place in life. The German people were neither rational nor reasonable. jar is right in that the bill will always get paid. The primary argument that I ascribe to in defense of the American people is that we are not the only ones who owe it. Were China the victorious power in a new war, we would not humiliate ourselves any further. We would be at the crossroads of history just as the German people were after the Great War.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2023 by ringo, posted 02-05-2023 2:29 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2032 by ringo, posted 02-06-2023 11:25 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18353
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2037 of 3694 (906067)
02-06-2023 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2033 by Theodoric
02-06-2023 12:38 PM


Re: again, Phat needs to learn the basics.s...but
Look, we have enough trouble paying the bills we owe today. Dont drag up 150 year old treaties out of the hope chest and expect that we will find the money to pay them. All you Leftists want is more other leftists to join your cause and vote you in office for perpetuity.
There are plenty of moderate or even right wing thinkers in the South American population. Lets get them over here too...without promising the world a Rose garden.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2033 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2023 12:38 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2042 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2023 4:40 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2052 by ringo, posted 02-07-2023 11:05 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18353
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2038 of 3694 (906068)
02-06-2023 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 2030 by ringo
02-06-2023 11:09 AM


Re: Im going to come across as an entitled ass...but
Society as a whole will decide what is necessary.
Damn right! Not some party that clings to power with a 5% majority. We will take the issue of reparations global and see how it plays out. I predict it will die. The planet has more pressing issues than bending over backwards to make every global citizen (financially) equal.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2030 by ringo, posted 02-06-2023 11:09 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2040 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-06-2023 4:06 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2043 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2023 4:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2044 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2023 4:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2053 by ringo, posted 02-07-2023 11:09 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18353
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2049 of 3694 (906100)
02-07-2023 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 2048 by Taq
02-06-2023 6:52 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Taq writes:
If a deity were controlling the natural world why couldn't we use observations of the natural world to evidence the actions of this deity?
We could, if we took into account that the experiment not only involved observation of the natural world but of our own communion with it and other people. The only "evidence" we would find would be our own reactions to our observations, our own feelings and thoughts on the data, and at the end of the day our choice in accepting or rejecting said Deity. In short, there will never be objective evidence of a Deity until and unless such a Deity chose to reveal it to us individually or collectively.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2048 by Taq, posted 02-06-2023 6:52 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2050 by Taq, posted 02-07-2023 10:58 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18353
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2059 of 3694 (906221)
02-09-2023 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 2050 by Taq
02-07-2023 10:58 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
So?
Just because you cant establish evidence or distinguish a character from a myth doesn't change human behavior.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2050 by Taq, posted 02-07-2023 10:58 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2061 by Taq, posted 02-09-2023 11:43 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18353
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2060 of 3694 (906222)
02-09-2023 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 2053 by ringo
02-07-2023 11:09 AM


Re: Im going to come across as an entitled ass...but
ringo writes:
It's a US problem ONLY.
Says who?
ringo writes:
It's about YOUR nation doing what's right.
Worry about your own nation. Over here, we are split roughly down the middle on these issues. You seem to think that one side writes the rules and the conclusions for everyone. They don't. (This applies to either side, by the way...depending on the specific issue.)

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2053 by ringo, posted 02-07-2023 11:09 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2063 by ringo, posted 02-09-2023 12:52 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18353
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2070 of 3694 (906334)
02-10-2023 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 2067 by AZPaul3
02-10-2023 11:57 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Reality says nothing of the sort. Absence of evidence does not define the conclusion, especially if the story traveled worldwide and has so many adherents today. You may wish it were a myth, however.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2067 by AZPaul3, posted 02-10-2023 11:57 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2072 by Taq, posted 02-10-2023 3:18 PM Phat has replied
 Message 2075 by nwr, posted 02-10-2023 3:30 PM Phat has replied
 Message 2077 by AZPaul3, posted 02-10-2023 6:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2078 by Tangle, posted 02-10-2023 9:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18353
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2071 of 3694 (906335)
02-10-2023 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2063 by ringo
02-09-2023 12:52 PM


Wasting Tiime Erasing The Blackboard
Were the system (the two-party system) working as it should...as it used to work, the parties would have enough of a consensus to avoid spending 4 years trying to fully undo what the previous group did in their 4 years. (which was likely only a year or so's worth of work since *they* spent 3 years trying to undo the policies of the ones before them!

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2063 by ringo, posted 02-09-2023 12:52 PM ringo has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18353
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2073 of 3694 (906337)
02-10-2023 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 2072 by Taq
02-10-2023 3:18 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
They have quite a ways to go to match Christianity or Islam.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2072 by Taq, posted 02-10-2023 3:18 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2074 by Taq, posted 02-10-2023 3:29 PM Phat has replied
 Message 2076 by Theodoric, posted 02-10-2023 6:07 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18353
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2079 of 3694 (906356)
02-10-2023 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 2076 by Theodoric
02-10-2023 6:07 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Maybe in your list of definitions.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2076 by Theodoric, posted 02-10-2023 6:07 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2082 by Theodoric, posted 02-10-2023 11:41 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18353
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2080 of 3694 (906357)
02-10-2023 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 2075 by nwr
02-10-2023 3:30 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
nwr writes:
Why aren't you a Mormon?
I was never impressed with the story.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2075 by nwr, posted 02-10-2023 3:30 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18353
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2081 of 3694 (906358)
02-10-2023 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 2074 by Taq
02-10-2023 3:29 PM


Appeal To Popularity
Taq writes:
Have they taught you about the Argument from Popularity fallacy in the class you are taking?
No, but I'm familiar with it. In fact, I'll reread it now, so as to support the point you are trying to make.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2074 by Taq, posted 02-10-2023 3:29 PM Taq has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18353
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2083 of 3694 (906361)
02-11-2023 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 2082 by Theodoric
02-10-2023 11:41 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
According to History.com they are, too...though many Christians disagree, citing several reasons.
In order to respect the Appeal to Popularity fallacy, this fact alone does not disqualify Mormonism from "being Christian" but some facts from this article might. To wit:
quote:
  • According to the LDS church, Adam and Eve lived in Daviess County, Missouri after being driven from the Garden of Eden.
  • Pleeease!
    quote:
    There are three levels of heaven—celestial, terrestrial and telestial—in Mormonism. Only those in the celestial kingdom will live in God’s presence.
    So what good are the other two levels? Remind me of the RCC concept of Purgatory!
    quote:
    Followers don’t recognize the Christian concept of the trinity (God existing in three persons). Instead, they believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three separate gods.
    Sounds a bit like Tritheism.
    quote:
    Mormons follow a strict healthy lifestyle that doesn’t allow them to consume alcohol, tobacco, coffee or tea.
    This is one of their more rational teachings and beliefs.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2082 by Theodoric, posted 02-10-2023 11:41 PM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 2084 by Theodoric, posted 02-11-2023 10:46 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18353
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 2085 of 3694 (906415)
    02-11-2023 5:16 PM
    Reply to: Message 2084 by Theodoric
    02-11-2023 10:46 AM


    Re: What's Important enough?
    Theo writes:
    Again your hate, bigotry and disrespect for the beliefs of others shines through.
    Nice guys always finish last.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2084 by Theodoric, posted 02-11-2023 10:46 AM Theodoric has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18353
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 2088 of 3694 (906542)
    02-13-2023 11:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 2087 by Stile
    02-13-2023 10:59 AM


    Re: What's Important enough?
    Stile writes:
    I investigate "why does this happen?"
    And all the investigation ever shows is: Because of natural processes. And we learn more and more about fascinating, awe-inspiring natural processes. They're really beautiful.
    Once you go down that rabbit hole, everything is mysterious, exquisite and beautiful Sometimes even terrifying!
    Stile writes:
    I don't think they happened out of the blue by chance - I think they happened because of why they happened.
    Its what fascinates you. No disrespect there.
    I don't disregard any idea of an external intelligence - you've just never been able to show that an external intelligence actually exists in the first place.
    I cant show you. Besides, God would be boring to you anyway. Im sure you've read the book.
    Let alone that an external intelligence actually did anything.
    Perhaps He uses unbelievers to get anything useful done.
    Let alone on top of that - why an external intelligence did the things you seem to want them to.
    To be honest, I just want Her to make my life comfortable. The peanut gallery sees that and it reinforces their desire to join you down the rabbit hole looking at really cool stuff rather than searching for a higher authority. Who on earth would want to do that????

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2087 by Stile, posted 02-13-2023 10:59 AM Stile has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 2089 by AZPaul3, posted 02-13-2023 12:13 PM Phat has replied
     Message 2091 by jar, posted 02-13-2023 12:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 2092 by Stile, posted 02-13-2023 12:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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