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Author | Topic: Choosing a faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Logically or emotionally?
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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You do not comprehend logically or emotionally.
You simply refuse to think or acknowledge evidence or reasoned arguments. And have done so successfully all your life.My Website: My Website
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: First of all, I am disputing these bills that *some* of society claim I owe. Some abstract concept that I and others have benefited from social privilege, for example, is not good enough. Show me the actual words of a treaty that was violated, and then maybe we can talk. In addition, I would also demand to read the words of the lawyers challenging such a treaty and the status of the treaty in a court of law. You have not shown how paying your bills causes more harm than good. The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Years ago, while in High School, I was a World War II buff. I bought that book. IIRC it was 1600 pages long and I never read it cover to cover. If you are referring to Hitler, I certainly dont see myself like him, though I can identify to a degree with the suffering of the German people in the twenties after the humiliating bill they were forced to pay from the allied powers. How would you feel, as a young man or woman, if you were born in debt?
Besides. as we always argue, there are two sides to every story. Hitler was, like Trump, a Populist. Hitler wrote Mein Kampf. Trump wrote The Art Of The Deal. Im sure if I studied further, I could see a bit of Trump in Hitler. I also will acknowledge that if the American people went through another Great Depression, they may feel like electing a Populist with lofty promises of restoration to greatness, but I also have faith in our system of government...in a two party system. Rationality has its place in life. The German people were neither rational nor reasonable. jar is right in that the bill will always get paid. The primary argument that I ascribe to in defense of the American people is that we are not the only ones who owe it. Were China the victorious power in a new war, we would not humiliate ourselves any further. We would be at the crossroads of history just as the German people were after the Great War. Edited by Phat, . Edited by Phat, : edited subtitle The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
You're denying. You're not showing what you claim.
First of all, I am disputing these bills that *some* of society claim I owe. Phat writes:
YOU don't get to decide what's "good enough". Society as a whole will decide what is necessary.
Some abstract concept that I and others have benefited from social privilege, for example, is not good enough. Phat writes:
The slaves were not allowed to sign treaties, moron. They were not considered human. A slave could no more sign a treaty than your fridge can sign a treaty. Show me the actual words of a treaty that was violated, and then maybe we can talk. That's why there are no treaties. But we've changed our minds. We've decided that black people ARE human after all. So human decency requires us to do what we can to atone for the attrocities we committed in the past.
Phat writes:
See above. In addition, I would also demand to read the words of the lawyers challenging such a treaty and the status of the treaty in a court of law. But even in the absence of any legal niceties, I think a strong legal case could be made for paying what you owe. Unwritten contracts, "gentlemen's agreements", deals made "on a handshake" have a long history in common law (longer than written contracts).Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Not to mention that the US has a long history of not honoring the Treaties that it does make.
Phat. Read and try to comprehend Article 2 of the US Constitution. Then consider Hawaii.My Website: My Website
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
So you SAY you read books you don't want to read but you don't actually read them. Years ago, while in High School, I was a World War II buff. I bought that book. IIRC it was 1600 pages long and I never read it cover to cover. I'm on my third read.
Phat writes:
Not just Hitler but the dupes who enabled him. "Oh yes sir, sure sir, three bags full sir." It's a portrait of every RepublicaNazi who enables Trump.
If you are referring to Hitler, I certainly dont see myself like him... Phat writes:
Obligated.
How would you feel, as a young man or woman, if you were born in debt? Phat writes:
Wow. If you looked up, could you see the sky too?
Im sure if I studied further, I could see a bit of Trump in Hitler Phat writes:
You keep saying they are going to.
I also will acknowledge that if the American people went through another Great Depression... Phat writes:
They already did. Where were you in 2016?
... they may feel like electing a Populist with lofty promises of restoration to greatness... Phat writes:
And you also have faith in the Republicans who are trying to destroy that system.
... I also have faith in our system of government... Phat writes:
That's not an argument. It's just denial. The primary argument that I ascribe to in defense of the American people is that we are not the only ones who owe it. Try going to the bank and telling them that you're not going to pay your mortgage because "that guy" didn't pay his.
Phat writes:
And look how that turned out. We would be at the crossroads of history just as the German people were after the Great War. Rationality would tell you, "Don't be Germany!" But you're happy making the same mistakes over and over and over again.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9207 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4
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Then consider every treaty signed with an indigenous tribe.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Percy writes: Probably some form of the term evolve is more appropriate than spread. If you're only talking about a mutation or attribute propagating through a population than spread might be an appropriate term, but not so much for evolving characteristics. I'm thinking more along the lines of Dawkins' memes. Evolving seems more applicable to a physical characteristic.
Percy writes: On what planet is it reasonable to argue that an evidence-free explanation is more reasonable than one without evidence? I assume that you meant "with and not "without". What physical evidence do you have that empathy evolved scientifically? We seem to agree that it spread but that doesn't give us a reason to choose either atheism or theism.
Percy writes: The evolutionary explanation for self-sacrifice is to allow one's genes to make it into succeeding generations. A familiar example is the male praying mantis, who risks death at the hands of the female just for a chance to mate. Sexually experienced males are very rare in this species. Sacrificing oneself for one's offspring is another familiar example that shares this explanation. Sacrificing oneself for related individuals who have less than half your genes also has this explanation. Sacrificing oneself for unrelated individuals who make the survival of your genes more likely, such as army mates helping you protect the country in which your family lives, also has this explanation. But it's clear you're thinking of selfless sacrifice where preservation of one's genes is not a factor. This is a case where I'm not aware of how evolution may play a role, but selfless sacrifice is not unique to believers. Hey, I agree with all of that. I'd add that I said from the beginning, that the god meme speaks to the religious and non-religious and all have the option of responding to it or rejecting it.
Brian Greene writes: Yet we expect that somewhere in the depths of physics there must be a less silly law describing the motion and the particles that make up pizza, milk, eggs, coffee, people and stars - the fundamental ingredients of everything - that show why thing evolve through one sequence of steps, but never the reverse. Such a law would give fundamental explanation to the observed arrow of time. The perplexing thing is that no one has discovered any such law. What's more the law of physics that have been articulated from Newton through Maxwell and Einstein, and up until today, show a complete symmetry between past and future. Nowhere in any of these laws do we find a stipulation that they apply one way in time, but not in the other. Nowhere is there any distinction between how the laws look or behave when applied in either direction in time. The laws treat what we call past and future on a completely equal footing. Percy writes: I have no idea why Brian Greene wrote that, but he is well aware of entropy and the arrow of time. In the same chapter of the book "Chance and the Arrow" he writes extensively on entropy and thermodynamics. He kinda wraps it up like this:quote: Here again is the wiki quote concerning Greene's religious beliefs.quote: Percy writes: Commenting on your excerpt from Brian Greene - Wikipedia, I think you must have misconstrued his meaning. Greene is only saying that "religion is a deeply valuable part" of human cultural history going back thousands of years that is part of what it means to be human. It doesn't provide any support at all for your views, and you're completely ignoring what the excerpt says earlier about the New Atheism movement resonating with him and feeling no need for religious explanation. Your excerpt fits under the heading of "providing both the argument and its rebuttal." I agree with your response. All I'm saying is that Greene leaves the question of an intelligent designer open saying essentially that he doesn't see the need for a religious explanation which is not the same as saying that there isn't one.
Percy writes: Again, you've misinterpreted Greene. I grant that we can't dismiss the possibility that your deity "is not subject to time," but only because there is nothing that can be dismissed about things for which there is no evidence. Are unicorns subject to time? Who knows, there's no evidence of any kind for unicorns, same as your God. And I can't imagine why you think Greene is supportive of your evidence-free ideas. But we weren't talking about time. We were talking about the infinite regression. Again, for the sixth time, if intelligent beings such as ourselves can only come about through the agency of another intelligent being like God, then an intelligent being like God can only come about through the agency of yet another intelligent being, and that one through yet another intelligent being, and so forth forever. Without irrelevantly citing Brian Greene this time, how do get around this? I just wanted to point out that a universe that is not restricted to a single time dimension can exist in answer to the question of infinite regression of gods, allowing for an infinite being. I agree that I have no evidence to support that except that it appears that the laws of physics support the possibility. I also agree that this is miles above my pay grade which is why I resorted to quoting Greene.
Percy writes: It's a hypothetical that might be true, but we don't know that. I would add as per the first post on this thread, that in Islam as in other world religions we can be serving God by following His command to love His creation and the lives of everyone in it, friend or foe. That is what ultimately matters.
It means you're a product of your environment. Had you been born and raised in an Islamic environment then it is Islam you would believe is "essentially true." Morocco is 99% Islamic, and if you were from there then you would think Islam essentially true, not Christianity. Percy writes: I would never call your "reasons to believe" evidence, but you call them evidence all the time. Frankly this is pretty much pointless. I'll try this. There are things in this world that lead me to the conclusions that I have come to which you would say are not evidence that should lead me to my conclusions. I have no idea how you will respond to that but I have a hunch it won't be positive.
Percy writes: Yes, I know. God-addicts believe if we had more God then things would be better and many even argue for a larger role for religion in government, forgetting all the evil that has been done in the name of religion. Gun-addicts argue that more guns is the answer. Anti-abortion advocates argue that easy access to abortions is responsible for the breakdown in society. People frequently look back on what they consider an idyllic past and forget all the wrongs, like segregation, back-room abortions, Jim Crow laws, Japanese disenfranchisement and internment during WWII, and so on, and that's all you're doing. In effect you're saying, "Wasn't it great back in the day when there was less diversity and everybody believed the same thing and no one committed suicide or had a drug problem because there were no drug problems back then because Darvon and Valium are just made up." So then I can assume then that the things we see in our societies today are no worse than the world we grew up in. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9004 From: Canada Joined:
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I agree with your response. All I'm saying is that Greene leaves the question of an intelligent designer open saying essentially that he doesn't see the need for a religious explanation which is not the same as saying that there isn't one. He said nothing at all about a designer. All he said is that religion itself is a part of (and an interesting part) of human culture. He's also saying that fighting over the existence of gods isn't good way to help people learn.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
ringo writes: I don't think it's a minority. I think it's pretty much a scholarly consensus. Believing He existed doesn't count any more than believing the Flood happened counts. This again is from This wiki site quote: He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Look, we have enough trouble paying the bills we owe today. Dont drag up 150 year old treaties out of the hope chest and expect that we will find the money to pay them. All you Leftists want is more other leftists to join your cause and vote you in office for perpetuity.
There are plenty of moderate or even right wing thinkers in the South American population. Lets get them over here too...without promising the world a Rose garden.The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Society as a whole will decide what is necessary. Damn right! Not some party that clings to power with a 5% majority. We will take the issue of reparations global and see how it plays out. I predict it will die. The planet has more pressing issues than bending over backwards to make every global citizen (financially) equal. Edited by Phat, : added financially The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Percy writes: This already has three replies, but I think it deserves another. Answering the same question you asked Tangle, I never made any decision to reject Christianity or Christian doctrine, any more than I made any such decision concerning Judaism, Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism. I'm sure that what's true for me is true for many others, that other than in discussions like this religions just don't show up on my radar. Maybe you've seen some of the criticism Phat has drawn for his vulnerability to precious metal flim-flam salesmen and emotional appeals about the gold standard. Religions are in the same category for me. About whether I think I've reached the correct conclusion, the only conclusion I've reached is that none of the world's religions have evidence, including yours. Why don't the leaders of all the sects of all the world's religions have a conference and decide what the actual truth is, then present the evidence behind their conclusions? You say the existence of love, empathy and morality tells you that there's something there. Which of the world's religions, if any, represent that "something" and why that one? Try to answer without using any form or synonym of the word "believe". There is a common thread that appears in every form of religion that I know of and also is there in the non-theistic world. Golden rule in religion I would say that is an acceptable norm for most societies or cultures, even though it is as often or maybe even more often than not ignored. It is more important to focus on that rather than simply arguing about any specific understanding of the world we live in. We can simply come to our own conclusions about why that is.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
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Not some party that clings to power with a 5% majority. So I guess another thing you don't understand is what the word majority means. And in the U.S. the Republicans have lost the popular vote in the last 4 presidential elections.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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