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Author | Topic: Choosing a faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
nwr writes: You are inventing your own God. Actually, this is very common. Most Christians claim they worship the Christian God. But they argue and disagree about the details of that God's character. That's because they have invented their own God, but agreed to say that it is the Christian God. Why not just take life as it comes, and without inventing your own God? Yes, there are aspects of our experience that we cannot completely explain. But we can get along without needing everything to be explained. We can celebrate the gaps in our knowledge, because they provide an opportunity for future discovery and learning. Thanks. This goes back as to my motive for starting this and yet I keep getting taken off track arguing stuff we've gone over previously. All of what you has merit. It is reasonable to ask the question of which god from the numerous choices do we choose. I was trying to make the point that it isn't the name of the religion or even the name of the deity that is important, but what matters is the nature of the deity that we worship that matters. If we put the Bible. the Book of Buddha and the Qur'an side by side we can see considerable overlap and then they diverge off into their specific theology. Yes, I am convinced that the loving God that we see embodied by Jesus to represent the nature of God, but I also don't discount the idea that people of other faiths or no particular faith, can come to that same understanding of God's nature. The point then is do our lives reflect that faith.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Percy writes: But those of the qualities of the God you've come to think exists and have chosen to follow. Discussions with you center around your reasons for making the choices you do. You consider them imperatives when they're not. "God as we call him" could be my God who hasn't yet noticed our existence. He has higher goals. We're not the focus of his attention or even awareness. Maybe. We all put faith in something.
Percy writes: And maybe it would if you'd give it a decent definition. As of now is just a blank slate upon which anyone can write whatever they like. A "cosmic intelligence" is a not of our universe intelligence that is responsible for our existence.
GDR writes: Having faith in God or Jesus is not about giving intellectual assent to any particular doctrine...Percy writes: Most of the Christian world would disagree with this. Quite possibly. To be called a Christian would require believing the basic doctrines of Christianity but the Biblical message is that it is all about condition of the heart. I'd suggest that the ultimate meaning of following Jesus is about following His way of loving the other, and to have faith that best explains how we should conduct our lives.
Percy writes: Selfless love is a good goal but has little to do with religion, God or Jesus. It would say that it doesn't have to, but that it often does. As I continue to study and discuss my faith I continually find that I am believing things now that I would have disagree with previously, and that is because of the theistic position that I started out with.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Stile writes: don't get your point here.I state that my point is to show that having a moral/loving motivation can be mundane and not require God and your thought is to cite an example of letting someone into traffic ahead of yourself (which the next person may also very well do.) Which, to me, is just another mundane (no God required) example. It seems you're proving my point? Ya,it doesn't make the point I want to make well at all. My point is that the "god meme" is universally available and that we are able to universally accept or reject it. However, when we observe one person responding positively then I am more likely to respond to it in a similar fashion in the future. It can spread exponentially. However, I agree that the same point would be true without the god meme. I was trying to give an example of how self-giving love can be seen in the simple things in life.
Stile writes: I guess we can go back to basics. We live in a universe, where we have conscious life, and where our physicality is all from basic particles. It is an open question as to whether that is the result of a mindless universe with our consciousness simply evolving through mindless particles or is there an intelligence that is responsible. Either way, it is belief and we will disagree I imagine on which is the most probable. Seems like equivocation to me.If you want to call my conclusion, based on evidence "a belief" the same as your conclusion, based on your desire for it to be true also "a belief." Well... that seems like you're glossing over a very big point. One agrees with all evidence we've learned from humanity learning things. While the other adds in extra entities that have never been verified. Those two things don't seem equal to me - but you may label them as you wish. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
dwise writes: Having never heard the word before then I'll go along with your wisdom and not use it either.
One thing I've learned on this forum was a new word, Ignosticism: dwise1 writes: It doesn't prove anything but I have thought it through a great deal. When theists in general do it, then the fault is more likely to lie in ethnocentrism and just plain not having thought it through.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
ringo writes: I don't like the term "intelligence" as applied to gods. To me, intelligence implies an ability to learn. Maybe, I'm not sure after thinking about it. I guess you can think of a static intelligence.
ringo writes: Why would a god have to learn? I think that God continues to learn about us. I am a big fan of the physicist/theologian John Polkinghorne. Polkinghorne contends that even God doesn't know the future as He has brought about a world where the future is not there to be known.
Here is a 3 minute clip where he talks about that. If that is the case then he is still learning about us.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
GDR writes: I can’t accept the belief that intelligence and morality can evolve from mindless origins.nwr writes: What does "mindless" actually mean? I think it's pretty clear. Are we completely the result of nothing but natural processes by chance or is there a mind or intelligence behind those processes?
nwr writes: Sure. Doesn't the way nature works give a strong appearance of being designes. Have you considered that nature may have different ways of doing something analogous?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
PaulK writes: The science-based understanding of morality points to an explanation that makes sense, based on observation. You reject that out of hand - but you don’t have an explanation for morality at all. I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense. It does. We can observe how ideas, moral and immoral, can be spread between individuals and even cultures. But how do we know what is moral and immoral. Immorality has enabled many people to achieve the immoral situation that they wanted to achieve. Morality has worked for many who wanted to achieve a moral situation. Either seems to work, so is there an overarching definition of moral and immoral or is it whatever any individual or group decides it is?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
GDR writes: Look at it this way. If someone from 300 years ago were to be transported into today and came upon a factory with only robots producing widgets which was being remotely controlled, it would appear that the robots are responsible for widgets. He wouldn’t know that the robots were designed by humans or even that there was human input into their functioning. (you could also look at AI as an example.)Tangle writes: Can you see that this is exactly what you are doing when you say that god did it? It's an argument from ignorance - a fallacy. The ‘primitives' looking at the robot have jumped to a wrong conclusion haven't they? They've failed to properly understand what they're looking at and got the wrong answer. They look pretty foolish on their knees worshipping a man-made robot making 'god'. (Reminds me of the cargo cult tribes worshipping Prince Philip) But they wouldn't stop at the robots would they? They'd then ask what made the robots and when they eventually worked out that it was just better educated people, they have to insert God again; just a bit higher up the ladder. It's an infinite regress until the believer inserts the entirely imaginary full stop of the uncaused cause. There is always the question of who or what made God which of course all I can do is claim, without evidence, that God is outside of time as we know it. However, your views also require going back through a virtually endless list of processes each requiring a cause untill you come to your uncaused cause. So this is kinda my point. Is there an ultimate uncaused cause, or is an uncaused cause possible, and if so what is the evidence for that? Can you show me scientifically how an uncaused cause is possible within your materialistic universe? What is the evidence for that. I claim without scientific evidence that there is an intelligence that is outside our perceived universe that is the ultimate cause for us. Either view cannot be proven and it boils down to what we choose to believe.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
I think it's been cleared up.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Phat writes: I think the resulting belief/conclusion is based on where one wants to be. Critical thinkers/willing atheists want to be freed from the whole God meme or belief concept. Theists, in contrast, want to have a higher power...albeit one friendly towards them. Just because someone wants it to be true doesn't mean it can't be. I believe the Blue Jays will win today, and it may very well turn out to be true. Religion has always called on a higher power that they want to be friendly towards them. Most of the Bible shows a people who thought/hoped that Yahweh would be friendly to them so that their enemies could be defeated militarily. Jesus denounced violent revolution and called for non-violent revolution. Jesus taught that the enemy isn't really people, but the overwhelming force of evil that exists in our world. People, just about always want their deity to serve them as opposed to the idea that we should serve God. (Which IMHO is about sacrificial love.)He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
OK I understand.
As a theist I believe that there is theistic deity to start with and then more specifically I believe in the specific deity of Jesus. You disbelieve in any theistic deity at all. Presumably then you do believe in a universe which can ultimately be explored scientifically as being all there is. Is that correct?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
AZPaul3 writes: No, the question is not unanswerable. You just don’t want to accept the answers the actual world provides. The evidence we have provides reproductive advantage as the answer to your ‘why’ questions. Do you understand how reproductive advantage drives evolution? Survival of the fittest, in its various and often erroneous interpretations, is but one aspect. Society, looking out for each other, no matter how small a touch of altruism, may, as the theories go, have had significant impact on the reproductive success across the greater population. Those “altruism” chemicals/pathways become more prominent and more powerful with each generation. A couple hundred generations later and altruism becomes settled in the human species as a benefit just like muscle strength. In all of this, nowhere is some emotionally conjured cosmic intelligence evident or necessary. We understand how, and the why, these processes work, and everything we see in evolution, including emotions, can be directly attributed to generations of incrementally improving reproductive success for its development and appearance in the human species. Yes, that is the same argument that I've heard all along. It doesn't preclude an outside input nor an outside first cause. I believe from a theological or philosophical position that outside input is a non-scientific reality, however it is just that - belief.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Tangle writes: I agree that my view essentially calls for God to be an uncaused god. Doesn't there have to be a natural materialistic first cause in your view of things? Of course not it's garbage. It's you that needs the uncaused cause, not me. Who made your god?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Tangle writes: I don't believe in your god or anybody's god. That's an end to it. It's nothing more complicated than that. Exactly like you don't believe in Father Christmas. Exactly like that. I don't have a substitute belief to make it easier for you to understand. As to whether we'll ever understand life the universe and everything, I can't see any reason at all why we should be able to. We're just evolved apes, why should we? It's just hubris. Doesn't stop us trying though. That's clear. I guess you see unbelief as not being a belief. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
There are so many of you replying to my posts that I have tried to keep up and can't. Just when I think I'm caught up for are 3 more posts to answer. I do have another life and I have to get at it. Done for the day.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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