Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 211 of 3694 (897324)
09-02-2022 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by GDR
09-02-2022 6:13 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Quick question. Have I resolved the program with my last couple of posts? I started copying from the web site rather than the emails onto word.
Sorry, but what the fuck are you talking about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by GDR, posted 09-02-2022 6:13 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 1:12 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 212 of 3694 (897325)
09-02-2022 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by GDR
09-02-2022 6:13 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Really? This kind of bullshit on your part is all that your god demands of you?
Well, that tells us everything we could ever need to know about your worthless piece-of-sh*t god we could ever need to know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by GDR, posted 09-02-2022 6:13 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by AZPaul3, posted 09-02-2022 6:49 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 213 of 3694 (897326)
09-02-2022 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by dwise1
09-02-2022 6:44 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Dwise1, I think GDR is talking about the strange characters he copied into some past posts. The ones Percy was asking about. He wasn't saying anything about god.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by dwise1, posted 09-02-2022 6:44 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 214 of 3694 (897328)
09-02-2022 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by nwr
09-02-2022 6:31 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
nwr writes:
GDR writes:
I can’t accept the belief that intelligence and morality can evolve from mindless origins.

What does "mindless" actually mean?
I have been thinking about this all day. It's just such a strange way to describe the normal processes of physics, chemistry, and biology. I see religious people and creationists use it to describe things often. I always wonder if they put "mindless" in front of the name of every inanimate object when they are talking with themselves in their own mind? Mindless rocks and mindless stars and mindless atoms?
nwr writes:
When we use our minds, a lot of what we are doing is simulating experiences in our thoughts and running trial and error tests on those simulations.
This is a really insightful description of what I experience.
As I have read what GDR has written in this thread I'm struck over and over at his lack of comprehension of how atheists view religion and gods and my own lack of comprehension about what the heck he's talking about.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by nwr, posted 09-02-2022 6:31 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1550 by Phat, posted 12-10-2022 12:53 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 215 of 3694 (897331)
09-03-2022 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by GDR
09-02-2022 4:52 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
But it is the same for the atheistic position
It is? You really think that what you call the “atheistic position” is just bald assertions? I think this explains your problem. You can’t tell reasoned discussion from baldly making assertions.
The science-based understanding of morality points to an explanation that makes sense, based on observation. You reject that out of hand - but you don’t have an explanation for morality at all.
Why should any rational person agree with you?

Edited by PaulK, .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by GDR, posted 09-02-2022 4:52 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 4:51 PM PaulK has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 216 of 3694 (897333)
09-03-2022 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by GDR
09-02-2022 5:16 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Look at it this way. If someone from 300 years ago were to be transported into today and came upon a factory with only robots producing widgets which was being remotely controlled, it would appear that the robots are responsible for widgets. He wouldn’t know that the robots were designed by humans or even that there was human input into their functioning. (you could also look at AI as an example.)
Can you see that this is exactly what you are doing when you say that god did it? It's an argument from ignorance - a fallacy.
The ‘primitives' looking at the robot have jumped to a wrong conclusion haven't they? They've failed to properly understand what they're looking at and got the wrong answer. They look pretty foolish on their knees worshipping a man-made robot making 'god'. (Reminds me of the cargo cult tribes worshipping Prince Philip)
But they wouldn't stop at the robots would they? They'd then ask what made the robots and when they eventually worked out that it was just better educated people, they have to insert God again; just a bit higher up the ladder. It's an infinite regress until the believer inserts the entirely imaginary full stop of the uncaused cause.
The last few hundred years of scientific discovery has shown us that when we don't fully understand something, the very worst thing to do is invent a totally unevidenced answer.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by GDR, posted 09-02-2022 5:16 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 5:08 PM Tangle has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 217 of 3694 (897346)
09-03-2022 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by GDR
09-02-2022 6:13 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Sorry about those last two. But even now in the cold light of day I still don't understand what you're saying:
Quick question. Have I resolved the program with my last couple of posts? I started copying from the web site rather than the emails onto word.
What program are you talking about? And how would one "resolve a program"?
Copying from the web site (EvC Forum, I assume you mean) is how I sometimes get our messages here into my text editor (NoteTab Pro) for editing. Emails? How would emails get involved here, but there again I will copy-and-paste from an email to a text file in my text editor, both to establish some kind of archive for key emails and to write my reply which I then copy-and-paste from my text editor to the email in the email website.
What would worry me is the continued use of a word processor instead of a text editor. My main concern is that the word processor will inject erroneous characters that would confuse an application that excepts ASCII; eg, the compiler expecting the ASCII code for double quotes (0x22) and instead getting the word processor's open and close double quotes (I forget those character codes).
Word processors are fine for working on documents with formatting, though I wouldn't expect their formatting to port to this forum. Frankly, I do most of my writing in my text editor and then, if I need the formatting capability, I will copy that over from the text editor to Word where I can add the formatting. I rarely use Word, but rather do almost everything in my text editor, NoteTab Pro: emails, web pages, source code, notes, etc. Well, if I'm working in another alphabet (eg, my Russian study notes), then I'm pretty much forced into using Word for that as well as selecting the Russian keyboard.
BTW, when I need to use special characters, I'll switch my keyboard over to ENG INTL (US-International) which handles most. Though on this forum I favor using HTML entity codes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by GDR, posted 09-02-2022 6:13 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 218 of 3694 (897347)
09-03-2022 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by dwise1
09-02-2022 6:36 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
I'm guessing that the spell went from problem to program.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by dwise1, posted 09-02-2022 6:36 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Phat, posted 09-03-2022 1:13 PM GDR has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 219 of 3694 (897348)
09-03-2022 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by GDR
09-03-2022 1:12 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Now i'm really confused. Ive been following this exchange between you two.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 1:12 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 5:10 PM Phat has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 220 of 3694 (897350)
09-03-2022 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by PaulK
09-01-2022 4:52 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
PaulK writes:
Kin selection for a start, as well as the evolutionary advantages of cooperation in a social species.
That is an explanation of how we see it happening by observation which I have no problem with. It doesn't explain why it happens nor does it negate other inputs. We all agree that a child brought up in a loving home is more likely to be a loving parent from a home where he/she was abused.
PaulK writes:
If we have to get it from this “cosmic intelligence” it doesn’t obviously make sense that the “cosmic intelligence” would just happen to have a sense of morality at all. If we took your argument seriously shouldn’t we be arguing that it would need to get it from a greater “cosmic intelligence” ?
Maybe, but we have to remember that we live in the 4 dimensional world that we perceive. We have 1 dimension of time even though I have read that in the mathematical world time is symmetrical and can go backwards. Maybe in another dimension time might be different and maybe without entropy. More than a tad esoteric but i's one way of considering it.
However I agree that the question is unanswerable.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by PaulK, posted 09-01-2022 4:52 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by PaulK, posted 09-03-2022 1:41 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 234 by AZPaul3, posted 09-03-2022 4:59 PM GDR has replied
 Message 256 by ringo, posted 09-04-2022 11:03 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 221 of 3694 (897351)
09-03-2022 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Taq
09-01-2022 5:41 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Taq writes:
"Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists?"
But that is assuming that the one way to find truth is through the scientific method. It also assumes a materialistic world.
I believe that the philosophical method can give us truth as well. For example, and this is hardly original with me, we see a kettle boiling on the stove. Science can tell us how the water came to be boiling but the non-scientific explanation is because Taq put the kettle on the stove to make coffee. Both explanations are true. One explanation is scientific and the other isn't.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Taq, posted 09-01-2022 5:41 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by Taq, posted 09-06-2022 1:45 PM GDR has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 222 of 3694 (897352)
09-03-2022 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by GDR
09-03-2022 1:27 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
That is an explanation of how we see it happening by observation which I have no problem with. It doesn't explain why it happens nor does it negate other inputs.
First, it IS an explanation of why. Second, there is no way to “negate” other inputs. Bu it is up to you to sho that these inputs are necessary.
quote:
We all agree that a child brought up in a loving home is more likely to be a loving parent from a home where he/she was abused.
That has nothing to do with Kim selection.
quote:
Maybe, but we have to remember that we live in the 4 dimensional world that we perceive. We have 1 dimension of time even though I have read that in the mathematical world time is symmetrical and can go backwards. Maybe in another dimension time might be different and maybe without entropy. More than a tad esoteric but i's one way of considering it.
That seems to be apologetic gobbledygook which doesn’t really help you at all. You are supposed to be making your case, but so far it seems to be nothing more than your failure to understand evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 1:27 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 223 of 3694 (897353)
09-03-2022 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by dwise1
09-01-2022 6:45 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
dwise1 writes:
What is "science of the gaps" supposed to be?
It is the equivalent to the antitheist position of "god of the gaps'. An example would be when a theist inserts the idea of a god being responsible for abiogenesis that would be a god of the gaps. I an antitheist says that there is a scientific explanation that just hasn't been discovered yet then that is science of the gaps.
dwaise1 writes:
What are the consequences of "science of the gaps" supposed to be? Contrasting that with the well known consequences of "God of the Gaps" would be useful.
Beats me. I can't think of any.
dwise1 writes:
Do you consider ringo's statement, "If we don't understand something yet, it doesn't mean we can't understand it ever.", to be wrong and why?
Of course it isn't wrong. Maybe science can come up with a scientific explanation of how abiogenesis occurred but it still wouldn't explain why it happened.
Even if science can repeat abiogenesis and get life from raw material it only demonstrates that it took intelligence to make it happen.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by dwise1, posted 09-01-2022 6:45 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 224 of 3694 (897354)
09-03-2022 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by nwr
09-01-2022 7:10 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
nwr writes:
You are inventing your own God.

Actually, this is very common. Most Christians claim they worship the Christian God. But they argue and disagree about the details of that God's character. That's because they have invented their own God, but agreed to say that it is the Christian God.

Why not just take life as it comes, and without inventing your own God? Yes, there are aspects of our experience that we cannot completely explain. But we can get along without needing everything to be explained. We can celebrate the gaps in our knowledge, because they provide an opportunity for future discovery and learning.
Thanks. This goes back as to my motive for starting this and yet I keep getting taken off track arguing stuff we've gone over previously.
All of what you has merit. It is reasonable to ask the question of which god from the numerous choices do we choose. I was trying to make the point that it isn't the name of the religion or even the name of the deity that is important, but what matters is the nature of the deity that we worship that matters.
If we put the Bible. the Book of Buddha and the Qur'an side by side we can see considerable overlap and then they diverge off into their specific theology.
Yes, I am convinced that the loving God that we see embodied by Jesus to represent the nature of God, but I also don't discount the idea that people of other faiths or no particular faith, can come to that same understanding of God's nature. The point then is do our lives reflect that faith.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by nwr, posted 09-01-2022 7:10 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 225 of 3694 (897357)
09-03-2022 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Percy
09-02-2022 8:59 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes:
But those of the qualities of the God you've come to think exists and have chosen to follow. Discussions with you center around your reasons for making the choices you do. You consider them imperatives when they're not. "God as we call him" could be my God who hasn't yet noticed our existence. He has higher goals. We're not the focus of his attention or even awareness.
Maybe. We all put faith in something.
Percy writes:
And maybe it would if you'd give it a decent definition. As of now is just a blank slate upon which anyone can write whatever they like.
A "cosmic intelligence" is a not of our universe intelligence that is responsible for our existence.
GDR writes:
Having faith in God or Jesus is not about giving intellectual assent to any particular doctrine...
Percy writes:
Most of the Christian world would disagree with this.
Quite possibly. To be called a Christian would require believing the basic doctrines of Christianity but the Biblical message is that it is all about condition of the heart. I'd suggest that the ultimate meaning of following Jesus is about following His way of loving the other, and to have faith that best explains how we should conduct our lives.
Percy writes:
Selfless love is a good goal but has little to do with religion, God or Jesus.
It would say that it doesn't have to, but that it often does. As I continue to study and discuss my faith I continually find that I am believing things now that I would have disagree with previously, and that is because of the theistic position that I started out with.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Percy, posted 09-02-2022 8:59 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Percy, posted 09-04-2022 9:58 AM GDR has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024