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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
GDR
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Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 181 of 3694 (897277)
09-01-2022 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by PaulK
09-01-2022 3:00 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
PaulK writes:
There are certainly scientific elements there, even if you discount the cultural factors.
What are they?
PaulK writes:
And where does this cosmic intelligence get it���s morality from? Or doesn���t it have one?
Well obviously I contend that it does. We have a sense of morality and deep down we know that the loving thing to do is the right thing to do, It would make sense that if this intelligence does exist then it should be consistent with that.
The question of where does this intelligence get its morality from is the equivalent question of why is there something instead of nothing. I think I’ll ask that question in the next life. I’m going to go to all the lectures. ????
PaulK writes:
Regardless, I think we would want rather better evidence than your refusal to understand the alternatives.
I think I do understand the alternatives but I only see the alternatives as a partial explanation

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by PaulK, posted 09-01-2022 3:00 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by PaulK, posted 09-01-2022 4:52 PM GDR has replied
 Message 186 by nwr, posted 09-01-2022 7:10 PM GDR has replied
 Message 193 by Percy, posted 09-02-2022 9:19 AM GDR has replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 182 of 3694 (897278)
09-01-2022 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by GDR
09-01-2022 4:41 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
What are they?
Kin selection for a start, as well as the evolutionary advantages of cooperation in a social species. You might want to consider how worker bees or ants fit into your understanding of evolution, for a start.
quote:
Well obviously I contend that it does. We have a sense of morality and deep down we know that the loving thing to do is the right thing to do, It would make sense that if this intelligence does exist then it should be consistent with that.
If we have to get it from this “cosmic intelligence” it doesn’t obviously make sense that the “cosmic intelligence” would just happen to have a sense of morality at all. If we took your argument seriously shouldn’t we be arguing that it would need to get it from a greater “cosmic intelligence” ?
quote:
The question of where does this intelligence get its morality from is the equivalent question of why is there something instead of nothing
It’s more like asking if your argument makes sense. And the answer is “no”. So I am going to stick with the answer that does make sense, even if you can’ t bring yourself to understand it.
quote:
I think I do understand the alternatives but I only see the alternatives as a partial explanation
Looks to me as if you just want to shoehorn your “cosmic intelligence” in there, despite the fact that it doesn’t help at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by GDR, posted 09-01-2022 4:41 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 1:27 PM PaulK has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 183 of 3694 (897279)
09-01-2022 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by GDR
09-01-2022 4:25 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Again, that does not exclude an external toot.
What does it mean to say that we can't rule out the undetectable and superfluous claims about the supernatural?
Carl Sagan talked about this in his story about the dragon that lived in a garage.
quote:
"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage"
Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin[4]) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!
"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.
"Where's the dragon?" you ask.
"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."
You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.
"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."
Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.
"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."
You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.
"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick."
And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.
Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.
--Carl Sagan
That last bit is the most important.
"Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists?"
Indeed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by GDR, posted 09-01-2022 4:25 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 1:37 PM Taq has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 184 of 3694 (897280)
09-01-2022 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by AZPaul3
09-01-2022 3:00 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
AZPaul3 writes:
Again, please, "loving sacrificially", what is that?
Loving or serving others even when it involve personal cost and without personal benefit.
AZPaul3 writes:
And "giving heart assent to loving sacrificially" means to do what?
It isn’t so much about doing, as it is about caring for others even beyond at times how we care for ourselves. What we do flows from that.
AZPaul3 writes:
And I don't follow the doctrine part. If one agrees with whatever this "heart assent" line means, is that not assenting intellectually to a very specific position?
It might or it might not.
That whole sentence seems at odds with the usual pronouncements of the priests who insist faith is to make the deity the center of action and worship. You seem to take that away.
Salvation by faith or works? Are you starting your own cult?
I have been trying to stay away from my Christian beliefs and argue my point strictly from a theistic POV. I’ll take a short break from that.
For centuries Christians churches, (and other faiths as well), have been focused on getting to heaven, or to get in good with whatever deity, when we die.
This is consistent with what most religions have been about all along. Usually as we can see in both the OT and the Gospels this was the case in the 1st century world.
Then they were looking for a Jewish messiah to come and lead them militarily against their enemies, namely the Romans. They wanted a warrior god. It was about getting a deity to serve us instead of the other way around.
Jesus turned this around, (even thought the disciples didn’t get it until later), by coming as a revolutionary but as a proponent of non-violent revolution. The point was about finding a way to benefit the self or a particular group, be it nation or faith. If you look at it objectively the notion of getting to heaven by becoming a Christian is once again trying to manipulate God so that you will benefit in the next life.
Within the Christian church there was also the problem that The Bible was being understood in the context of the current time and culture, essentially ignoring the fact that Jesus communed with and taught 1st century Jews of which He was one.
The to end to the problems a couple of centuries ago many Christian churches, primarily in North America began to essentially focus on an inerrant Bible instead of on Jesus, essentially making a false idol out of the Bible.
I read a lot of theological books by a variety of Christian scholars and it really appears to me that the church is going through a period of reformation.
This is a very long answer to a short question but I just want to be reasonably clear that I’m not that far from the mainstream, (particularly within Anglcanism)
I’ll try to highlight the points of what I see changing.
1/ The focus of getting to heaven is changing in two ways. It isn’t about heaven so much but about the renewal of this world and God’s dimension, (heaven if you want), and our dimension becoming one. This of course gets away from the view that this world doesn’t matter as God will destroy it anyway and whisk us away somewhere else. As a result caring for all of this creation including the planet itself matters. Now the focus is much more on us serving God as opposed to getting Him to serve us. The next life will take care of itself and we can leave that to God.
2/There is now an emphasis on reading the books of the Bible in the context of their own time and culture and also getting away from the idea that God dictated it.
3/With the discovery of the dead sea scrolls as well as other discoveries of ancient tests and along with the internet, scholars now are better at translating the Bible and understanding it.
4/ The realization that Jesus did talk about the world to come, but much of what has been taken as being about end times was really about His argument against violent revolution. Tis would include all of that stuff about the so-called rapture
The bottom line is the Christian church is changing. My views have been changing along the same lines, and I think are roughly consistent with what I’ve talked about in this thread.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by AZPaul3, posted 09-01-2022 3:00 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 185 of 3694 (897281)
09-01-2022 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by GDR
08-31-2022 8:45 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Theodoric's Signature writes:
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
That is again the “god of the gaps” argument which is an empty argument. However “science of the gaps” is not an argument either and I see it employed more than I see the “god of the gaps” argument. It too is a case for intellectual laziness.
Whatever are you talking about? In particular, what is "science of the gaps" supposed to be and supposed to claim/state?.
I did a search on that phrase and traced back through NosyNed's quoting your apparently first use of it in 2013 -- Message 171, 22-May-2013 11:31 AM, in My Beliefs- GDR:
GDR writes:
ringo writes:
Like the creationists, you keep saying "can't" when you should be saying "don't". If we don't understand something yet, it doesn't mean we can't understand it ever.
Ya I know....science of the gaps.
At no point could I find you ever defining what that was supposed to mean, nor what its significance is supposed to be. Frankly, it looks like it was (and still is) a knee-jerk attempt at diversion like Trump's out-of-order "response" to Clinton exposing him in debate as Putin's puppet: "You're the puppet! You're the puppet!"
Please define that term and present some kind of support for it or at least some discussion of it:
What is "science of the gaps" supposed to be?
What is the position of "science of the gaps" supposed to be?
What are the consequences of "science of the gaps" supposed to be? Contrasting that with the well known consequences of "God of the Gaps" would be useful.
BONUS QUESTION: Do you consider ringo's statement, "If we don't understand something yet, it doesn't mean we can't understand it ever.", to be wrong and why?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by GDR, posted 08-31-2022 8:45 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 186 of 3694 (897284)
09-01-2022 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by GDR
09-01-2022 4:41 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
You are inventing your own God.
Actually, this is very common. Most Christians claim they worship the Christian God. But they argue and disagree about the details of that God's character. That's because they have invented their own God, but agreed to say that it is the Christian God.
Why not just take life as it comes, and without inventing your own God? Yes, there are aspects of our experience that we cannot completely explain. But we can get along without needing everything to be explained. We can celebrate the gaps in our knowledge, because they provide an opportunity for future discovery and learning.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by GDR, posted 09-01-2022 4:41 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(2)
Message 187 of 3694 (897285)
09-01-2022 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by nwr
09-01-2022 7:10 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
We can celebrate the gaps in our knowledge, because they provide an opportunity for future discovery and learning.
And jobs and hobbies for science nerds!

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 188 of 3694 (897291)
09-01-2022 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by ringo
09-01-2022 12:20 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
And you can't know Jesus by rejecting everything the Bible says about Him.
Everything? Do you exaggerate much?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by ringo, posted 09-01-2022 12:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 189 of 3694 (897293)
09-01-2022 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Phat
09-01-2022 10:42 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
You are mentally ill. Get help. Leave this forum and get help.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Phat, posted 09-01-2022 10:42 PM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 190 of 3694 (897295)
09-02-2022 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by GDR
09-01-2022 1:09 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
I had looked at a thread on this forum and was troubled by the ideas expressed in the thread about choosing which god to follow.

My point was that God as we call him reaches out to everyone,...
But those of the qualities of the God you've come to think exists and have chosen to follow. Discussions with you center around your reasons for making the choices you do. You consider them imperatives when they're not. "God as we call him" could be my God who hasn't yet noticed our existence. He has higher goals. We're not the focus of his attention or even awareness.
I used the term "cosmic intelligence" simply so that it would apply to everyone.
And maybe it would if you'd give it a decent definition. As of now is just a blank slate upon which anyone can write whatever they like.
Having faith in God or Jesus is not about giving intellectual assent to any particular doctrine...
Most of the Christian world would disagree with this.
...but about giving heart assent to loving sacrificially. That is where our faith should lie.
Selfless love is a good goal but has little to do with religion, God or Jesus.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by GDR, posted 09-01-2022 1:09 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 191 of 3694 (897296)
09-02-2022 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by GDR
09-01-2022 2:29 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
The point I’m trying to make in this thread is that altruistic behaviour comes from cosmic intelligence.
You're getting deep into the woo-woo.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by GDR, posted 09-01-2022 2:29 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 192 of 3694 (897298)
09-02-2022 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by GDR
09-01-2022 4:25 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
I'm not understanding:
GDR writes:
Stile writes:
My point for all this was to show that "having a moral or loving motivation" can come from a mundane, or "materialistic" (if you prefer) environment.

The example again, that I’ve used several times, is the idea of letting someone into traffic ahead of yourself and then they are more likely to do the same thing for someone else.
I don't get your point here.
I state that my point is to show that having a moral/loving motivation can be mundane and not require God and your thought is to cite an example of letting someone into traffic ahead of yourself (which the next person may also very well do.) Which, to me, is just another mundane (no God required) example.
It seems you're proving my point?
GDR writes:
Stile writes:
My point is that there is no "so called consciousness."
Yes, that is your belief.
Seems like equivocation to me.
If you want to call my conclusion, based on evidence "a belief" the same as your conclusion, based on your desire for it to be true also "a belief." Well... that seems like you're glossing over a very big point.
One agrees with all evidence we've learned from humanity learning things.
While the other adds in extra entities that have never been verified.
Those two things don't seem equal to me - but you may label them as you wish.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by GDR, posted 09-01-2022 4:25 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 2:54 PM Stile has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 193 of 3694 (897299)
09-02-2022 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by GDR
09-01-2022 4:41 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
PaulK writes:
And where does this cosmic intelligence get it���s morality from? Or doesn���t it have one?
Can you describe the details of how you copy/paste? Are you first composing your message in some editing tool and then copy/pasting over? Maybe you're using a font that your browser isn't familiar with? I want to understand how apostrophes get turned into these monstrosities so I can figure out how to prevent it from happening.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by GDR, posted 09-01-2022 4:41 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 194 of 3694 (897300)
09-02-2022 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Phat
09-01-2022 10:42 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Phat writes:
Everything? Do you exaggerate much?
Not much. Go ahead and give some examples of things the Bible says about Jesus that you don't reject. You reject the idea that you have to DO anything to be "saved". You reject the idea that you should trust Him instead of your retirement plan. Isn't that pretty much His whole schtick?

Edited by ringo, : More style. Still a little bit of substance.


"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Phat, posted 09-01-2022 10:42 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(4)
Message 195 of 3694 (897301)
09-02-2022 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by Percy
09-02-2022 8:59 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
I used the term "cosmic intelligence" simply so that it would apply to everyone.
And maybe it would if you'd give it a decent definition.
One thing I've learned on this forum was a new word, Ignosticism:
quote:
Ignosticism or igtheism is the idea that the question of the existence of God is meaningless because the word "God" has no coherent and unambiguous definition.
Terminology
The term ignosticism was coined in 1964 by Sherwin Wine, a rabbi and a founding figure of Humanistic Judaism.
Distinction from theological noncognitivism
Ignosticism and theological noncognitivism are similar although whereas the ignostic says "every theological position assumes too much about the concept of God", the theological noncognitivist claims to have no concept whatever to label as "a concept of God", but the relationship of ignosticism to other nontheistic views is less clear. While Paul Kurtz finds the view to be compatible with both weak atheism and agnosticism, other philosophers[who?] consider ignosticism to be distinct.

As of now is just a blank slate upon which anyone can write whatever they like.
Indeed, until we can establish a clear definition for "God", everybody will just use it to mean whatever they choose to mean without ever having to reveal just what they are talking about.
In my very first semester in college I took the class in Formal Logic. The instructor was an infamous local politician (ultra-conservative former state senator), but he kept true to his promise to keep politics out of the lectures (except for occasional non-partisan examples) -- I say that to establish his training and practical experience with debating.
He taught us that in a debate the first order of business is to clearly establish the definitions of the terminology that will be used in the debate. Without that essential first step, the debate is meaningless as both sides use the same words sans meaning to talk past each other about entirely different things.
Of course, debates and attempted discussions with creationists (primarily) and theists in general almost invariably avoid (or even refuse) to present their definitions. Especially creationists rely on the ensuing confusion such that the most terrifying question you can ask them is "What are you saying? What does that mean?"
When creationists do that, it is certainly through malfeasance. When theists in general do it, then the fault is more likely to lie in ethnocentrism and just plain not having thought it through. Though when theists do it for the purpose of proselytizing (ie, trying to deceive one into converting), then that edges towards malfeasance.

This message is a reply to:
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