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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 241 of 3694 (897374)
09-03-2022 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by GDR
09-03-2022 5:08 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
There is always the question of who or what made God which of course all I can do is claim, without evidence, that God is outside of time as we know it.
That's meaningless. As meaningless as me saying that the god that made your god is outside physics. Anybody can say anything.
Can you show me scientifically how an uncaused cause is possible within your materialistic universe? What is the evidence for that.
Of course not it's garbage. It's you that needs the uncaused cause, not me. Who made your god?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 5:08 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 6:01 PM Tangle has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 242 of 3694 (897375)
09-03-2022 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Phat
09-03-2022 3:54 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Phat writes:
I think the resulting belief/conclusion is based on where one wants to be.

Critical thinkers/willing atheists want to be freed from the whole God meme or belief concept. Theists, in contrast, want to have a higher power...albeit one friendly towards them.
Just because someone wants it to be true doesn't mean it can't be. I believe the Blue Jays will win today, and it may very well turn out to be true.
Religion has always called on a higher power that they want to be friendly towards them. Most of the Bible shows a people who thought/hoped that Yahweh would be friendly to them so that their enemies could be defeated militarily. Jesus denounced violent revolution and called for non-violent revolution.
Jesus taught that the enemy isn't really people, but the overwhelming force of evil that exists in our world. People, just about always want their deity to serve them as opposed to the idea that we should serve God. (Which IMHO is about sacrificial love.)

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Phat, posted 09-03-2022 3:54 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 243 of 3694 (897376)
09-03-2022 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Tangle
09-03-2022 3:59 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
OK I understand.
As a theist I believe that there is theistic deity to start with and then more specifically I believe in the specific deity of Jesus.
You disbelieve in any theistic deity at all.
Presumably then you do believe in a universe which can ultimately be explored scientifically as being all there is.
Is that correct?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Tangle, posted 09-03-2022 3:59 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Tangle, posted 09-03-2022 5:57 PM GDR has replied
 Message 250 by dwise1, posted 09-03-2022 6:22 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 244 of 3694 (897377)
09-03-2022 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by AZPaul3
09-03-2022 4:59 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
AZPaul3 writes:
No, the question is not unanswerable. You just don’t want to accept the answers the actual world provides.

The evidence we have provides reproductive advantage as the answer to your ‘why’ questions.

Do you understand how reproductive advantage drives evolution? Survival of the fittest, in its various and often erroneous interpretations, is but one aspect. Society, looking out for each other, no matter how small a touch of altruism, may, as the theories go, have had significant impact on the reproductive success across the greater population. Those “altruism” chemicals/pathways become more prominent and more powerful with each generation.

A couple hundred generations later and altruism becomes settled in the human species as a benefit just like muscle strength. In all of this, nowhere is some emotionally conjured cosmic intelligence evident or necessary. We understand how, and the why, these processes work, and everything we see in evolution, including emotions, can be directly attributed to generations of incrementally improving reproductive success for its development and appearance in the human species.
Yes, that is the same argument that I've heard all along. It doesn't preclude an outside input nor an outside first cause. I believe from a theological or philosophical position that outside input is a non-scientific reality, however it is just that - belief.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by AZPaul3, posted 09-03-2022 4:59 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by AZPaul3, posted 09-03-2022 6:34 PM GDR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 245 of 3694 (897378)
09-03-2022 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by GDR
09-03-2022 5:33 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Presumably then you do believe in a universe which can ultimately be explored scientifically as being all there is.

Is that correct?
No, but it's a start.
I don't believe in your god or anybody's god. That's an end to it. It's nothing more complicated than that. Exactly like you don't believe in Father Christmas. Exactly like that. I don't have a substitute belief to make it easier for you to understand.
As to whether we'll ever understand life the universe and everything, I can't see any reason at all why we should be able to. We're just evolved apes, why should we? It's just hubris. Doesn't stop us trying though.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 5:33 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 6:03 PM Tangle has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 246 of 3694 (897379)
09-03-2022 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Tangle
09-03-2022 5:25 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Tangle writes:
Of course not it's garbage. It's you that needs the uncaused cause, not me. Who made your god?
I agree that my view essentially calls for God to be an uncaused god. Doesn't there have to be a natural materialistic first cause in your view of things?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Tangle, posted 09-03-2022 5:25 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Tangle, posted 09-03-2022 6:10 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 247 of 3694 (897380)
09-03-2022 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Tangle
09-03-2022 5:57 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Tangle writes:
I don't believe in your god or anybody's god. That's an end to it. It's nothing more complicated than that. Exactly like you don't believe in Father Christmas. Exactly like that. I don't have a substitute belief to make it easier for you to understand.

As to whether we'll ever understand life the universe and everything, I can't see any reason at all why we should be able to. We're just evolved apes, why should we? It's just hubris. Doesn't stop us trying though.
That's clear. I guess you see unbelief as not being a belief.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Tangle, posted 09-03-2022 5:57 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by ringo, posted 09-04-2022 10:31 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 262 by Theodoric, posted 09-04-2022 3:59 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 248 of 3694 (897381)
09-03-2022 6:09 PM


Hi all
There are so many of you replying to my posts that I have tried to keep up and can't. Just when I think I'm caught up for are 3 more posts to answer. I do have another life and I have to get at it. Done for the day.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Tangle, posted 09-04-2022 6:37 PM GDR has replied
 Message 268 by Percy, posted 09-04-2022 7:23 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 269 by AZPaul3, posted 09-04-2022 7:28 PM GDR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 249 of 3694 (897382)
09-03-2022 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by GDR
09-03-2022 6:01 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Doesn't there have to be a natural materialistic first cause in your view of things?
I have absolutely no idea and neither has anybody else.
All we actually know is that everything we've examined critically so far has natural causation. There is also growing evidence that causation isn't necessary.
But if that proves to be a fact you and I won't understand it and it won't affect your beliefs. Your beliefs are not founded on reason so reason won't change them.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 6:01 PM GDR has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 250 of 3694 (897383)
09-03-2022 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by GDR
09-03-2022 5:33 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Presumably then you do believe in a universe which can ultimately be explored scientifically as being all there is.
Possible, albeit intractable. As long as questions remain and the unknown has yet to be explored and understood, we must continue to explore, discover, and learn. We will never be able to learn everything, but we must still try.
That would be the difference between "God of the Gaps" (GotG) and your "Science of the Gaps" (SotG). Unfortunately, you had not explored the ideas and their consequences during the nine years since you first posted mention (without explanation) of your SotG.
The GotG approach and attitude is "we don't know this and we never will, so therefore goddidit." Not only does that put a stop to any further research into those questions because of that empty goddidit "answer", but that goddidit becomes proof of God. So not only does it create the illusion of that question having been answered, but it also creates the situation in which any attempts at further research would be questioning God, something that believers would never allow.
quote:
Gentry's case depends upon his halos remaining a mystery. Once a naturalistic explanation is discovered, his claim of a supernatural origin is washed up. So he will not give aid or support to suggestions that might resolve the mystery. Science works toward an increase in knowledge; creationism depends upon a lack of it. Science promotes the open-ended search; creationism supports giving up and looking no further. It is clear which method Gentry advocates.
("Gentry's Tiny Mystery -- Unsupported by Geology" by J. Richard Wakefield, Creation/Evolution Issue XXII, Winter 1987-1988, pp 31-32)
As I recall Wakefield stating in another article, also concerning Gentry's polonium halos claim:
Creationists equate a mystery with "proof of God" and so resist and oppose attempts to solve that mystery. Scientists see that same mystery and set about trying to solve it.
The "fault" that you attribute to your SotG, that our built-in assumption that we should be able to find answers to the gaps in our knowledge, is actually its strength and is what makes it better than GotG with its defeatism. If we think that we can find the answer, then we will try to find it and, even if we cannot answer that particular question, we will learn so much more in the process.
And, yes, scientific methodology has proven to be the best approach we have ever created for learning about the physical universe and how it works.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 5:33 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 12:29 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 251 of 3694 (897384)
09-03-2022 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by GDR
09-03-2022 5:50 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Yes, that is the same argument that I've heard all along. It doesn't preclude an outside input nor an outside first cause.
Why would it have to preclude/include/declude anything? This is the observation as I stated. There is nothing else there.
What outside input? What first cause? Your flavor of a god? Why are you making this stuff up?
Regardless, your emotions cannot alter the result of our knowledge and experience. You cannot alter the reality of our science.
In determining social morality, altruism, emotion and every other human trait and condition we find evolution as the only necessary and sufficient venue. No ghosts are present or needed or wanted.
I fail to see the utility of your beliefs.
More better in keeping with the theme of your thread:
Why did you choose this specific fantasy as your faith?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 5:50 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 12:39 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 252 of 3694 (897385)
09-04-2022 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by GDR
09-03-2022 2:32 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Maybe. We all put faith in something.
Too general. Anyway, the most significant difference between our beliefs is that I know there's no evidence for what I believe and you don't.
A "cosmic intelligence" is a not of our universe intelligence that is responsible for our existence.
It is actually unicorns living on Alpha Centauri who are responsible for our existence.
A "cosmic intelligence" is a not of our universe intelligence that is responsible for our existence.
I couldn't make grammatical sense of this, but I think I get your drift. But seriously, it's unicorns.
Quite possibly. To be called a Christian would require believing the basic doctrines of Christianity but the Biblical message is that it is all about condition of the heart. I'd suggest that the ultimate meaning of following Jesus is about following His way of loving the other, and to have faith that best explains how we should conduct our lives.
I follow the unicorns.
Percy writes:
Selfless love is a good goal but has little to do with religion, God or Jesus.

It would say that it doesn't have to, but that it often does.
It too often doesn't and too often results in people shooting at each other and hurling missiles across borders.
As I continue to study and discuss my faith I continually find that I am believing things now that I would have disagree with previously, and that is because of the theistic position that I started out with.
So you feel you're getting closer? Why couldn't it be that you're getting further? You have nothing to go by other than what beliefs you find most appealing at the time.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 2:32 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Theodoric, posted 09-04-2022 3:55 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 276 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 12:53 PM Percy has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 253 of 3694 (897386)
09-04-2022 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by GDR
09-03-2022 4:19 PM


GDR writes:
Polkinghorne contends that even God doesn't know the future as He has brought about a world where the future is not there to be known.
It's interesting how believers create gods that can't/won't/don't do the things that aren't convenient in their particulsr belief system. Omnipotence, omniscience, etc. are all highly limited. The invented gods are a lot like their inventers.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 4:19 PM GDR has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 254 of 3694 (897387)
09-04-2022 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by GDR
09-03-2022 6:03 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
I guess you see unbelief as not being a belief.
And baldness is not a hair color.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 6:03 PM GDR has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 255 of 3694 (897388)
09-04-2022 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Phat
09-02-2022 3:12 PM


Re: Schooling God
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Why would a god have to learn?
He can't fathom a created being--a creature of His trying to lecture Him on what His morality should be or how He should treat certain situations.
You and GDR postulate a puny god who can't do this and can't understand that. We humans create things that are deliberately stronger than us and smarter than us.
Phat writes:
The apologists would explain that the reason God kills not only the men but the women and children is twofold.
1) He gave them over a hundred years to repent and change.
That's not an "explanation". It's an excuse for bad behavior. Every murderer on Death Row has an excuse. "I had no choice. Supper wasn't on the table. I had to kill her."
Phat writes:
2) He foreknows that the cancer is incurable and that the children would end up growing into the same decadent monsters that their parents had become.
You really don't think before you post, do you? If you had four feet, they'd all be in your mouth.
If God "knew" that humans were incurable, there wouldn't have been any point in sending Jesus to "save" them, would there?
Phat writes:
As far as God giving His favorites a pass, keep in mind that the favorites (like King David) knew enough to repent before being judged.
So you contradict yourself. If David knew enough to repent, why not the newborns in Canaan?
Phat writes:
You likely would argue that true freewilled creatures should have the option to develop and behave any darn way they choose.
Stop trying to predict what I "would" argue.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Phat, posted 09-02-2022 3:12 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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