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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 256 of 3694 (897389)
09-04-2022 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by GDR
09-03-2022 1:27 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
It doesn't explain why it happens nor does it negate other inputs.
You keep talking about "negating other inputs". I have a fairly vague idea of how my fridge works. I don't "negate" leprechauns as other inputs. I just don't NEED any other inputs. (Occam's razor.)

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 1:27 PM GDR has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 257 of 3694 (897390)
09-04-2022 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by GDR
09-03-2022 2:54 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
I guess we can go back to basics. We live in a universe, where we have conscious life, and where our physicality is all from basic particles. It is an open question as to whether that is the result of a mindless universe with our consciousness simply evolving through mindless particles or is there an intelligence that is responsible. Either way, it is belief and we will disagree I imagine on which is the most probable.
All the possibilities with zero evidence are equally improbable. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? I say ten, you say eleven. Which is more probable? Neither.
All religious arguments are the same. No evidence anywhere to be found. "But I have a book full of unevidenced claims that I believe are true, and many others believe they're true, and that has to count for something." No.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 2:54 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 12:58 PM Percy has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 258 of 3694 (897391)
09-04-2022 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Phat
09-03-2022 3:54 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Phat writes:
Critical thinkers/willing atheists want to be freed from the whole God meme or belief concept.
Nonsense. If critical thinking concluded that there is a God, I would be perfectly happy with that conclusion. The point of critical thinking is to AVOID concluding what we want to conclude.
Phat writes:
Theists, in contrast, want to have a higher power...
I want to eat ice cream three times a day but critical thinking tells me not to.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Phat, posted 09-03-2022 3:54 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by AZPaul3, posted 09-04-2022 4:25 PM ringo has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 259 of 3694 (897392)
09-04-2022 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Phat
09-03-2022 3:54 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Phat writes:
Critical thinkers/willing atheists want to be freed from the whole God meme or belief concept.
This is as wrong as all the other times you were told it was wrong. Atheists and critical thinkers are no more trying to free themselves of God than of ogres, dragons or leprechauns. What part of "We don't believe they exist" don't you understand?
You keep imagining that though you've been told countless times it is not a case of knowing deep inside that God exists while trying to deny him in order to gain freedom from his constraints, you keep thinking that's the case anyway. This is getting really, really old. Move on already.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Phat, posted 09-03-2022 3:54 PM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 260 of 3694 (897400)
09-04-2022 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by GDR
09-03-2022 4:51 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense. It does. We can observe how ideas, moral and immoral, can be spread between individuals and even cultures. But how do we know what is moral and immoral.
In an absolute sense, we don't. Is murder immoral except in war? Many military units have chaplains. What do the chaplains say? I'll bet it isn't that killing the enemy is wrong. So much for your moral religion.
Immorality has enabled many people to achieve the immoral situation that they wanted to achieve. Morality has worked for many who wanted to achieve a moral situation. Either seems to work, so is there an overarching definition of moral and immoral or is it whatever any individual or group decides it is?
You're looking for a certainty that doesn't exist. Making up a Guy in the Sky who you think knows for sure might make you feel better, but given all the immoral things that happen if He exists then He has no apparent effect. Or maybe we've misconstrued morality, for instance that murder is wrong, or lying is wrong. Maybe Trump is the most moral man on the planet. How would you know he's not? What you believe is based upon stuff you've made up, you have no evidence for anything, so anything is possible.
But scientific research reveals an evolutionary basis that contributes to overall survival and expresses itself culturally and socially. Lots of evidence there. By these standards Trump is unambiguously immoral.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 4:51 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 1:10 PM Percy has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 261 of 3694 (897401)
09-04-2022 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Percy
09-04-2022 9:58 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Damn, I thought it was leprechauns.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Percy, posted 09-04-2022 9:58 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 262 of 3694 (897402)
09-04-2022 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by GDR
09-03-2022 6:03 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Not playing baseball is not a sport.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 6:03 PM GDR has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 263 of 3694 (897403)
09-04-2022 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by ringo
09-04-2022 11:11 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
I want to eat ice cream three times a day but critical thinking tells me not to.
My critical thinking lets me do this. But I have to use much smaller dishes.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by ringo, posted 09-04-2022 11:11 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by ringo, posted 09-04-2022 5:34 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 264 of 3694 (897405)
09-04-2022 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by AZPaul3
09-04-2022 4:25 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
AZPaul3 writes:
ringo writes:
I want to eat ice cream three times a day but critical thinking tells me not to.
​My critical thinking lets me do this. But I have to use much smaller dishes.
I make a lasagna that's only one calorie per serving. (A 9 x 12 pan is 10,000 servings.)

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by AZPaul3, posted 09-04-2022 4:25 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by AZPaul3, posted 09-04-2022 5:57 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 265 of 3694 (897406)
09-04-2022 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by ringo
09-04-2022 5:34 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
I would love to taste about 400 servings of your lasagna. With just a touch of romano if allowed.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by ringo, posted 09-04-2022 5:34 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 266 of 3694 (897408)
09-04-2022 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by GDR
09-03-2022 6:09 PM


Re: Hi all
GDR writes:
There are so many of you replying to my posts that I have tried to keep up and can't. Just when I think I'm caught up for are 3 more posts to answer. I do have another life and I have to get at it. Done for the day.
I have a lot of sympathy for that. Take your time. Pick the points you want to reply to.
Meanwhile we'll play with Phat and the real loonies, they're immune. We rarely get a semi-sane one around these parts these days.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 6:09 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 1:13 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 267 of 3694 (897409)
09-04-2022 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by GDR
09-03-2022 5:08 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
There is always the question of who or what made God which of course all I can do is claim, without evidence, that God is outside of time as we know it. However, your views also require going back through a virtually endless list of processes each requiring a cause until you come to your uncaused cause.
You misunderstood Tangle. His views don't include an "uncaused cause". He called it "the entirely imaginary full stop of the uncaused cause."
So this is kinda my point. Is there an ultimate uncaused cause, or is an uncaused cause possible, and if so what is the evidence for that?
So no, there is no "uncaused cause," which sounds like religious/creationist gobbledygook anyway.
Can you show me scientifically how an uncaused cause is possible within your materialistic universe? What is the evidence for that.
Again, Tangle called it imaginary.
I claim without scientific evidence that there is an intelligence that is outside our perceived universe that is the ultimate cause for us.
All unevidenced claims can be dismissed without evidence.
Either view cannot be proven and it boils down to what we choose to believe.
Again, I think you misunderstood what Tangle was saying. But scientifically you are correct, no one's view can be proven since nothing is ever proven in science.
But also scientifically, it is not a case of just deciding what beliefs you accept. It's how much evidence is behind what you've chosen to accept, and you've just conceded there's no evidence behind your views.
As someone else already noted, you're trying to convince yourself that your views and our views are on an equal footing. They're not. Our views have evidence, yours don't. This is usually the point where, in the past, you've begun arguing that you do too have evidence.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 5:08 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 1:22 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 268 of 3694 (897410)
09-04-2022 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by GDR
09-03-2022 6:09 PM


Re: Hi all
GDR writes:
There are so many of you replying to my posts that I have tried to keep up and can't. Just when I think I'm caught up for are 3 more posts to answer. I do have another life and I have to get at it. Done for the day.
History here says that positions that at least on their surface look easy to rebut draw many responses.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 6:09 PM GDR has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 269 of 3694 (897411)
09-04-2022 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by GDR
09-03-2022 6:09 PM


Re: Hi all
I do have another life and I have to get at it.
Like Tangle said take your time. My stuff can be ignored. It's mostly repeats of others anyway.
Just don't burn out! That would not be good. You're the brightest spark these haunts have seen since ... well, since when jar went missing and we had to call out a national manhunt.
Has anyone said welcome back?

Edited by AZPaul3, .


Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 6:09 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 1:23 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 270 of 3694 (897414)
09-05-2022 6:50 AM


Posted this before but it's one response to the something from nothing problem. Skip the very long introductions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwzbU0bGOdc

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Percy, posted 09-05-2022 10:00 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 291 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 3:12 PM Tangle has replied

  
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