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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
ringo
Member
Posts: 20810
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1816 of 1956 (905161)
01-19-2023 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1805 by Phat
01-18-2023 11:42 PM


Re: Theo: Belief Is Nobodies Damn Business
Phat writes:
This forum is about debate and discussion.
Then DISCUSS.
Phat writes:
And at its root it is about evolution and creationism.
At it's root it's about thinking and not thinking.
Phat writes:
God is an integral part of that discussion.
But you don't discuss. You only opinionate.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1805 by Phat, posted 01-18-2023 11:42 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1818 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 10:59 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20810
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 1817 of 1956 (905162)
01-19-2023 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1813 by Phat
01-19-2023 10:26 AM


Re: There is harm, there is foul
Phat writes:
The modus operendi of your political platform is to gather together all of the people who self identify as oppressed and aim your wrath at conservatives due to their privilege which you whine about since you claim it is unearned.
You're an idiot.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1813 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 10:26 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17034
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1818 of 1956 (905163)
01-19-2023 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1816 by ringo
01-19-2023 10:55 AM


Re: Theo: Belief Is Nobodies Damn Business
ringo writes:
But you don't discuss. You only opinionate.
Every book ever written is based on the opinion of the author. Furthermore, whats different about a discussion and an opinion? A discussion is when two or more insert their informed (or uninformed) opinions into the record of the discussion for later criticism and peer review.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1816 by ringo, posted 01-19-2023 10:55 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1820 by ringo, posted 01-19-2023 11:11 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20810
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1819 of 1956 (905165)
01-19-2023 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1815 by Phat
01-19-2023 10:45 AM


Re: I Again Think GDR has Given Up On This Thread
Phat writes:
It has to do with what is being taught in the house.
Then why did you bring up that nonsense about "who owns the house"?
Phat writes:
It has to do with what is being taught in the house.
What's being taught is don't mess up the house.
Phat writes:
This puppy does not want masters who know nothing about what they are trying to train and teach.
It doesn't matter what the puppy wants. If the puppy can't be trained, it goes back to the pound.
Phat writes:
This puppy does not want masters who know nothing about what they are trying to train and teach.
But they DO know what they're trying to teach. You're afraid to discuss what they're trying to teach.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1815 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 10:45 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20810
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1820 of 1956 (905166)
01-19-2023 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1818 by Phat
01-19-2023 10:59 AM


Re: Theo: Belief Is Nobodies Damn Business
Phat writes:
Every book ever written is based on the opinion of the author.
Nonsense. I am currently re-reading The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William L. Shirer. It's based on TONS of documents captured from the Nazis after the war.
We know that YOU only read books full of empty opinions but don't tar every book with the same dirty brush that you use.
Phat writes:
Furthermore, whats different about a discussion and an opinion?
For the umpteenth time, a discussion addresses rebuttals of the opinion.
Phat writes:
A discussion is when two or more insert their informed (or uninformed) opinions into the record of the discussion for later criticism and peer review.
No. It is not for "later" criticism and peer review. It is for ongoing discussion. And peer review has nothing to do with it.
Without ongoning discussion, you are not discussing.
Discuss the rebuttals. Stop grave-digging old PRATTS.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1818 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 10:59 AM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8082
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 1821 of 1956 (905167)
01-19-2023 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1813 by Phat
01-19-2023 10:26 AM


Re: There is harm, there is foul
So when a RWNJ like you lies about someone and makes unevidenced accusations, us "liberals" should just accept and meekly carry on?
Please point out my whining or are you lying again? I have made it very clear that I am extremely privileged You want to see unprivileged? Let me introduce you to some cousins. How about young adults with AIDS that we support in South Africa? Most of them have made or are making a good life. Even without privilege and without whining. Those without privilege know that whining will do no good. They leave the whining to the privileged.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1813 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 10:26 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1827 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 3:55 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8082
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1822 of 1956 (905168)
01-19-2023 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1813 by Phat
01-19-2023 10:26 AM


Re: There is harm, there is foul
I do not need to read a book to know what it's intent and stance is. You yourself posted racist excerpts that you seemed to think validated the book.
Chapter One:
There is an obvious, observable truth about people in the West. Historically the citizens of Europe and their offspring societies in the Americas and Australasia have been white. (...)In the war on the West, white people are one of the first subjects of attack. A fact that has been steadily normalized and made into the only acceptable form of racism in the societies in which it happens. To demonize the West, it appears to be necessary first to demonize the people who still make up the racial majority in the West.
Chapter One:
...one of the distinguishing marks of CRT was that its assertions were based not on evidence, as it might previously been understood, but essentially on interpretations and attitudes. (...)the rules of CRT had no need for normal standards of evidence. If a person's "lived experience" could be attested to, then the question of "evidence" or "data" had to find a place further back in the queue, if at all.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1813 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 10:26 AM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21346
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1823 of 1956 (905206)
01-19-2023 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1813 by Phat
01-19-2023 10:26 AM


Re: There is harm, there is foul
Phat writes:
You are such a whiner and are a poster child for the victim mentality of the Liberal progressives.
Is it whining when Trump and others on the right complain for years that they are victims of the deep state, the mainstream media, social media outlets, rigged elections, a Democratic House, a Democratic Justice Department, the FBI, liberal judges and Antifa?
Other things being equal, any large group of people is going to be just like any other large group of people with regard to personal characteristics like degree of whininess or a victim mentality.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1813 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 10:26 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1825 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 3:45 PM Percy has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5920
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 1824 of 1956 (905207)
01-19-2023 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1808 by Percy
01-19-2023 8:38 AM


Re: I Again Think GDR has Given Up On This Thread
Percy writes:
I am only questioning one of your beliefs, the one that holds that there is evidence for what you believe.
I think I covered that in my last post Message 1796
Percy writes:
I don't see how what I believe spiritually is relevant. I never, ever think about these beliefs unless I'm in a conversation like this, and then I pull them out and examine them and familiarize myself with them again and find them interesting and unusual. They don't guide my life in any way. I would think it silly to tell them to anyone unless they said they wanted to know, as you did. They aren't something I would ever promote or defend.

A more accurate statement of my beliefs is that there is a purpose to the universe, but we don't know what that purpose is, and we don't know if we have any role in it or are just along for the ride. And I have one nod to outside influences: God looks like the image on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. I do have evidence for this belief, since a man of great talent, integrity and esteem painted it, and he wouldn't just make it up. Ah, the fallacy of appeal to authority, gotta love it.
Thanks for the interesting reasonable response. Actually I think that a large percentage of the population is in that camp. In some ways I think that what you have done is taken scientific evidence as far as it can take us, at least at this time. I think that after that it is about philosophy and then theology and then whatever credence we assign to them.
One thing maybe to consider is that people are telegenic. We look for meaning and purpose in both big and small ways in our lives. If we are the result of a creative intelligence we should at least consider that if, we are the result of that creative intelligence and we assign meaning and purpose to our lives, then we could consider that we should look at ourselves to discern that purpose.
Of course the problem in doing that is that we can obviously see that there are many, and often conflicting views, about the purpose and meaning of people. This then goes back to my original point in this thread, which has gone a million miles off topic. I suggest that the foundational meaning and purpose of our lives is representative of the god we worship regardless of whether we assign a name or not to this creative intelligence.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1808 by Percy, posted 01-19-2023 8:38 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1833 by Percy, posted 01-19-2023 5:43 PM GDR has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17034
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1825 of 1956 (905208)
01-19-2023 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1823 by Percy
01-19-2023 3:31 PM


Re: There is harm, there is foul
I concede that whining goes both ways.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1823 by Percy, posted 01-19-2023 3:31 PM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1826 by Theodoric, posted 01-19-2023 3:52 PM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8082
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1826 of 1956 (905209)
01-19-2023 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1825 by Phat
01-19-2023 3:45 PM


Re: There is harm, there is foul
You accused me personally of being a whiner. Don't act like everything is good. You made personal attacks. You cannot just pretend and both sides this.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1825 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 3:45 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1828 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 3:58 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17034
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1827 of 1956 (905210)
01-19-2023 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1821 by Theodoric
01-19-2023 11:15 AM


Re: There is harm, there is foul
Theo writes:
Please point out my whining or are you lying again? I have made it very clear that I am extremely privileged.
You want to see unprivileged? Let me introduce you to some cousins.
How about young adults with AIDS that we support in South Africa? Most of them have made or are making a good life. Even without privilege and without whining. Those without privilege know that whining will do no good. They leave the whining to the privileged.
So in some ways, we are alike, you and I. We are both privileged(by global standards)
We both have poorer cousins within our family. The main difference is that you are burning down the very house you live in due to your politics. You seek to vanquish the entire support system that made America great and that allowed you and I to go to school and get the education we needed. I know you don't believe that the economy is weak and I won't belabor the point. Perhaps another difference between us is that I feel entitled to some privilege because my Dad worked hard to pave the way. Children of educated elitists often appeal to Uncle Sam to help them. And make no mistake. You are a proudly educated elitist. (That's not an insult, by the way)

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1821 by Theodoric, posted 01-19-2023 11:15 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1829 by Taq, posted 01-19-2023 4:07 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1830 by Theodoric, posted 01-19-2023 4:14 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 1832 by nwr, posted 01-19-2023 5:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17034
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1828 of 1956 (905211)
01-19-2023 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1826 by Theodoric
01-19-2023 3:52 PM


Re: There is harm, there is foul
What sort of personal apology do you want from me?

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1826 by Theodoric, posted 01-19-2023 3:52 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1831 by Theodoric, posted 01-19-2023 4:16 PM Phat has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9296
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 1829 of 1956 (905213)
01-19-2023 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1827 by Phat
01-19-2023 3:55 PM


Re: There is harm, there is foul
Phat writes:
The main difference is that you are burning down the very house you live in due to your politics. You seek to vanquish the entire support system that made America great and that allowed you and I to go to school and get the education we needed.
There are times I stop to consider that I somehow transported myself to this universe from some parallel universe with a different history.
Phat, are you at all aware of US history? I mean, AT ALL AWARE???
A college education used to be affordable to everyone in the US. Why? Government subsidies, what conservatives now call socialism. In fact, a state run school is socialism. Why are tuitions at state schools unaffordable to the majority of US citizens today? Conservatives have eroded support of schools.
How are you not aware of this?
Perhaps another difference between us is that I feel entitled to some privilege because my Dad worked hard to pave the way. Children of educated elitists often appeal to Uncle Sam to help them. And make no mistake. You are a proudly educated elitist. (That's not an insult, by the way)
Did you father expect Medicare and Social Security? I bet he did.
Do regular working folk expect the government to build schools for their kids? Yep, they sure do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1827 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 3:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8082
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1830 of 1956 (905215)
01-19-2023 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1827 by Phat
01-19-2023 3:55 PM


Re: There is harm, there is foul
Again you know nothing. I am not the child of educated elitists. Being educated does not make one an elitist.
I am not burning anything down. I am working to raise the house up and make the foundation stronger.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1827 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 3:55 PM Phat has not replied

  
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