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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8082
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1831 of 1956 (905216)
01-19-2023 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1828 by Phat
01-19-2023 3:58 PM


Re: There is harm, there is foul
I don't want shit from you. I want you to realize that your words have consequences and claiming there is no foul, or even apologizing does not fix it.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1828 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 3:58 PM Phat has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6231
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


(2)
Message 1832 of 1956 (905219)
01-19-2023 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1827 by Phat
01-19-2023 3:55 PM


Re: There is harm, there is foul
We are both privileged(by global standards)
Agreed.
We both have poorer cousins within our family.
Again, I can agree.
The main difference is that you are burning down the very house you live in due to your politics.
This is just wrong. It is the conservatives, such as you, who are burning down the house.
You seek to vanquish the entire support system that made America great and that allowed you and I to go to school and get the education we needed.
This is backwards. The conservatives, such as you, are attacking the support system. Education is now too expensive for many Americans, as a result of conservative politics. Conservatives are continuing to attack social security and medicare.
Perhaps another difference between us is that I feel entitled to some privilege because my Dad worked hard to pave the way.
My parents supported me as a child and through my education. I do not expect any entitlement to privilege beyond that. I happen to believe in the American principle that all men are created equal -- and that's something that you seem to reject.
You are a proudly educated elitist.
You are the elitist around here. Your expectation of entitlement to privilege is part of your elitism.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1827 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 3:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21346
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 1833 of 1956 (905222)
01-19-2023 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1824 by GDR
01-19-2023 3:38 PM


Re: I Again Think GDR has Given Up On This Thread
GDR writes:
One thing maybe to consider is that people are telegenic. We look for meaning and purpose in both big and small ways in our lives.
I don't think telegenic's the right word. Maybe you mean apophenia or pareidolia?
If we are the result of a creative intelligence we should at least consider that if, we are the result of that creative intelligence and we assign meaning and purpose to our lives, then we could consider that we should look at ourselves to discern that purpose.
Why must life have a purpose? Maybe it just is.
Of course the problem in doing that is that we can obviously see that there are many, and often conflicting views, about the purpose and meaning of people. This then goes back to my original point in this thread, which has gone a million miles off topic. I suggest that the foundational meaning and purpose of our lives is representative of the god we worship regardless of whether we assign a name or not to this creative intelligence.
It would never occur to me to worship anything. Seems to me that an intelligence of any worth would tell people attempting to worship it to please just stop.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1824 by GDR, posted 01-19-2023 3:38 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1835 by Theodoric, posted 01-19-2023 5:52 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1836 by GDR, posted 01-19-2023 8:20 PM Percy has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5920
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1834 of 1956 (905224)
01-19-2023 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1786 by Stile
01-16-2023 4:25 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Stile writes:
No.
Evidence that He doesn't exist is evidence that He doesn't exist.
If I look at an empty table, this is evidence that my keys do not exist on that table.
Evidence that my keys exist at all... is validated evidence such as a vehicle I own that requires keys... that keys are shown to exist for other vehicles...

We've looked in many, many places. A lot of those looks have been done where people have said "look! God must be there!"
And yet... God is never found. Anywhere.

We've looked... for thousands of years... and not found God.

That is evidence that He doesn't exist. Because we've looked.
There is no evidenced reason to consider God as a requirement for anything.
I would agree that in the places you have looked there is no evidence. For me I see a mother or father absolutely adoring their new baby and would without hesitation sacrifice anything, including their lives for that child. I see people risking their lives for someone they have never met. I see people donating vast sums of money for others in need that might even be on the other side of the world I see people dedicated to the welfare of animal life or even for the planet even though they won't be alive to see the results. That is where I find God.
Stile writes:
Evidence that the resurrection wasn't historical:

In any study ever done, humans have never been identified as capable of being resurrected
Many people claim that they (or their uncle...) have been resurrected. If looked into, the result is always the same - they were mistaken of the situation, or over-stating what actually happened
The Bible is known to be wrong about a great many things
There is no indication that any of the "miracles" included in the Bible ever happened
Verbal stories are known for being embellished to include "entertainment", even within days of the experience they're based on
The Bible stories were passed verbally for years... decades... before being written down
The Biblical story of Jesus includes many things that are included in other myths that are "before" Jesus:
The idea of coming back from the dead
Walking/travelling on water
Attempts at being killed as an infant
Virgin births
Spiritual healings
Moral leadership

This is all evidence that "accepting the resurrection as an historical event" is a bad place to start.
I don't have a problem with any of that.
I'll repeat what I said in a post to Percy in post Message 1794
quote:
I have said several times that what I have is evidence is all subjective, and this is what I have. You claim that doesn't constitute evidence in your world, but it works for me.
1/ I have a written evidence in the Bible
2/ I have the fact that life and particularly sentient life exists
3/ I have the fact that we can distinguish good from evil
4/ I have life experience with the experience of love and hate, joy and sadness,
ugliness and beauty etc.

I agree none of that is scientific and is rejected by pretty much everyone here. I also agree that it is not conclusive. That's fine but it is the answer I have for you wanting evidence and beyond that it is faith.
That makes me a theist. As a theist I believe that life exists because of an external intelligence. Also as a theist I believe that this life has ultimate meaning and purpose and that there is a point to the fact that we exist. Believing that it makes me open to the possibility that God can do something that is inconsistent with the laws of the materialistic universe.
With that in mind then the resurrection becomes a possibility and I have concluded that Jesus' resurrection makes the most sense of the rise of the Christian faith in the 1st century.
Stile writes:
If you were seeking the "truth" or #1 just as much as me... you would look for "a good place" to start from.
Our best known method for identifying truth says that when we want to identify reality - we should start from validated evidence.

Since you are starting with "accepting the resurrection as an historical event" and I am not (because it is not validated evidence...) then you are quite clearly not seeking the "truth" as much as I am. You seem to be seeking something that requires accepting the resurrection as an historical event.
I don't just stop at the point that there is no physical evidence that can be affirmed scientifically as you have. From a #1 POV i went beyond that in the ways that I just pointed out above. Maybe in seeking truth you stopped at the point of believing you could have irrefutable evidence of.
Stile writes:
Actually, they scream "natural processes!"

Vast intelligent systems are complex, yes - but they are not overly complex.
Evolution is incredibly, ridiculously, insanely overly complex.
To the point that it's very obvious that no intelligence created it. In fact, if it was purposefully created, it certainly was not created by "intelligence" and was actually created by "absolute stupidity." It's that overly complex.
So you prefer a solution that has natural processes bringing about natural processes, bringing about natural processes, bringing about natural processes -------------etc.
I have to admit that in my view the complexity of the processes is highly suggestive of design either with or without intervention. I frankly have trouble understanding how people can see mindless processes resulting in the complexity of life let alone sentient life with consciousness.
Stile writes:
t's not the discovery of processes that implies natural processes.
It's the discovery of natural processes that implies natural processes.

When we look at how a whale evolved, we could have found intelligent design.
But, we didn't - we found natural processes.

When we look at how eyes evolved, we could have found intelligent design.
But, we didn't - we found natural processes.

When we look at how wings evolved, we could have found intelligent design.
But, we didn't - we found natural processes.
That is all under the umbrella of one process - the evolutionary process.
Stile writes:
When we look at how society evolved, we could have found intelligent design.
But, we didn't - we found natural processes.

When we look at how morality evolved, we could have found intelligent design.
But, we didn't - we found natural processes.
In these two cases what you have is speculative evidence based on your pre-existing theories. I agree that there is no evidence of intelligent design but you are looking at the way society and morality have evolved and then reading a materialistic view back into that.
As for the rest of your post let's just agree to disagree.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1786 by Stile, posted 01-16-2023 4:25 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1850 by Stile, posted 01-24-2023 9:18 AM GDR has replied
 Message 1853 by Stile, posted 01-24-2023 2:41 PM GDR has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8082
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1835 of 1956 (905225)
01-19-2023 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1833 by Percy
01-19-2023 5:43 PM


Re: I Again Think GDR has Given Up On This Thread
Any god, being, whatever, that demands or wants to be worshipped does not deserve to be even thought about. Never mind treated with any kind if respect.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1833 by Percy, posted 01-19-2023 5:43 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5920
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1836 of 1956 (905233)
01-19-2023 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1833 by Percy
01-19-2023 5:43 PM


Meaning and Purpose
I don't think telegenic's the right word. Maybe you mean apophenia or pareidolia?
I don't know how telegenic came up. I meant to use teleological. Needed to look them up but I certainly didn't mean either of those other words, but my hat is off to you for coming up with them.
Percy writes:
Why must life have a purpose? Maybe it just is.
That's certainly reasonable but I just disagree.
Percy writes:
It would never occur to me to worship anything. Seems to me that an intelligence of any worth would tell people attempting to worship it to please just stop.
My point was about where we put our priorities. On the negative side it is about prioritizing wealth or power for their own sake and on the positive side it might be to be a a great loving parent.
I contend we worship God by fallowing His call to love our neighbour and care for other life forms and for the planet itself. The way I think that you are using the term worship. I would say that it is not not for God but for us, to help guide us towards what you see in my signature.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1833 by Percy, posted 01-19-2023 5:43 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1837 by Percy, posted 01-21-2023 8:16 AM GDR has replied
 Message 1838 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 9:18 AM GDR has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21346
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 1837 of 1956 (905262)
01-21-2023 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1836 by GDR
01-19-2023 8:20 PM


Re: Meaning and Purpose
GDR writes:
Percy writes:
Why must life have a purpose? Maybe it just is.
That's certainly reasonable but I just disagree.
My position on "Must life have a purpose?" is actually "I don't know." I was just asking you to explain why life must have a purpose.
Consider the possibility that there was once microbial life on Mars a few billion years ago that went extinct as the planet dried up and its atmosphere escaped into space. Would that life have had a purpose?
Or what if there had been no asteroid 66 million years ago with the result that dinosaurs still ruled the Earth, pterosaurs still ruled the sky, plesiosaurs still ruled the seas, mammals were still small and relegated to underground niches, and intelligent life had never evolved. Would that life have a purpose?
My point was about where we put our priorities. On the negative side it is about prioritizing wealth or power for their own sake and on the positive side it might be to be a a great loving parent.
Morality is fundamental to your point. What is moral? Isn't morality relative?
I contend we worship God by following His call to love our neighbour and care for other life forms and for the planet itself. The way I think that you are using the term worship. I would say that it is not not for God but for us, to help guide us towards what you see in my signature.
If I'm recalling your recent discussion with Tangle correctly, he pointed out that what you're calling worshipful behavior is just being a decent person, and I resent your contention that I'm behaving worshipfully when I behave decently. "Worship" has multiple definitions, but the one that is appropriate for this thread is "reverence or adoration of a deity." None of the definitions of worship is "behaving decently." We understand your point perfectly, but you're misusing the word.
Also, by employing that definition you imply that by behaving decently we're actually engaging in worship that demonstrates evidence of God. I resent attempts like this to involuntarily include us in the God club by in essence saying, "You may say you don't believe in God, but your behavior says you not only believe in him but worship him."
Bottom line: behaving decently is not a form of worship.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1836 by GDR, posted 01-19-2023 8:20 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1839 by GDR, posted 01-21-2023 5:55 PM Percy has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17033
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1838 of 1956 (905263)
01-21-2023 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1836 by GDR
01-19-2023 8:20 PM


Re: Meaning and Purpose
Im really stirring the pot this morning! Usually I try and keep it amiacable and on a hypothetical level around here, but occasionally as I explore my own beliefs and test myself against what I understand others to believe in or think or rationalize or prioritize, I ignite some sparks.
So here is my 2 cents regarding the recent posts in this topic.
Back in the Great Depression, my Grandmother and Grandfather had a mild disagreement. They lived in a large house and had 5 kids. Before the Depression, my Granddad was a college professor at the University of Missouri. He lost his job and then started a restaurant. The depression was a burden for everyone at that time and in fact there was one time where my Grandfather became so depressed at the prospect of not being able to feed and provide for his family (and) had to close the restaurant--he lost it in the depression. Grandmother, meanwhile, was so worried about everyone in town. She often invited the homeless men to share a meal with the family. Granddad insisted, however, that they stay outside of the house and made her feed them on the porch. He did not trust strangers to mingle with his family.
Theodoric writes:
I have made it very clear that I am extremely privileged ...
Grandma thought the same way. She felt that if the family had enough food they ought to share. Grandpa reluctantly agreed but insisted that the poor stay out of our house. On a global scale, we here in America are still "extremely privileged" but it is not our duty to invite everyone into our "house". (As you all might guess, I am more like my Granddad than my sweet grandmother.)
Percy writes:
Other things being equal, any large group of people is going to be just like any other large group of people with regard to personal characteristics like degree of whininess or a victim mentality.
True. In addition, any large group of people (the US voting public, perhaps) is going to have some who are more like my grandmother and others who are more like my grandfather. Moving on...
GDR writes:
...we can obviously see that there are many, and often conflicting views, about the purpose and meaning of people. This then goes back to my original point in this thread, which has gone a million miles off topic. I suggest that the foundational meaning and purpose of our lives is representative of the god we worship regardless of whether we assign a name or not to this creative intelligence.
For some of us, the meaning that we assign is based on the value we were taught both at home and at church.(or other clubs and groups that one purposefully participates in)
Taq writes:
Phat, are you at all aware of US history? I mean, AT ALL AWARE???
A college education used to be affordable to everyone in the US. Why? Government subsidies, what conservatives now call socialism. In fact, a state run school is socialism. Why are tuitions at state schools unaffordable to the majority of US citizens today? Conservatives have eroded support of schools.
Im glad that you bring up issues that should affect my beliefs and decision-making going forward. This whole battle between liberals and conservatives is seen by each of us in different ways. In my mind, there should be no battle. In my grandparents case, there was no battle because there was compromise. Had there been two people, each of which believed they were right and neither offering to concede any ground, there would be war within that house.
Taq writes:
Did you father expect Medicare and Social Security? I bet he did.
IIRC, he never mentioned it but I would imagine that he felt entitled to it...and justifiably so. If he had, like my grandmother, let every human rights case into the country(house in this analogy) his government would have become overburdened with supporting so many mouths to feed. Again, as my grandfather did, we have to look at the big picture. Is it our job to feed every needy mouth in town or should we worry about our families(our own) first? (sorry i'm conflating two topics here at the forum)
Theodoric writes:
I am not burning anything down. I am working to raise the house up and make the foundation stronger.
Well if so, quit inviting everyone in to the house. Worry about feeding our families before inviting more in.
nwr writes:
My parents supported me as a child and through my education. I do not expect any entitlement to privilege beyond that. I happen to believe in the American principle that all men are created equal -- and that's something that you seem to reject.
The United States is privileged. We are blessed with resources and the freedom to use them responsibly. It is not our job nor (should it be) our goal to spread our wealth to the whole world with no rational prospect of a return on investment. We need to look out for our own first.
Percy writes:
Why must life have a purpose? Maybe it just is.
And yet we all (even unbelievers) have an inner spark of empathy towards other humans. Again my question: Should we be quick to help other families before helping our own?
Percy writes:
It would never occur to me to worship anything. Seems to me that intelligence of any worth would tell people attempting to worship it to please just stop.
Perhaps, but it would seem logical that we understood "it" to be a superior intelligence to our own. We would naturally seek its favor (if we accepted it) and listen to what (The Spirit) tells us.
GDR writes:
I see people donating vast sums of money for others in need that might even be on the other side of the world I see people dedicated to the welfare of animal life or even for the planet even though they won't be alive to see the results. That is where I find God.
I believe that God is with us...all of us...and that He is judging every idle word that comes out of our mouths. I better be careful!
Theo writes:
Any god, being, whatever, that demands or wants to be worshipped does not deserve to be even thought about. Never mind being treated with any kind if respect.
Well, any human that even entertains the idea of a God would be a fool to imagine themselves on the same plane. (and are also unworthy of respect)
GDR writes:
I contend we worship God by following His call to love our neighbor and care for other life forms and for the planet itself.
Do you believe in open borders? WWJD?



The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1836 by GDR, posted 01-19-2023 8:20 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1840 by GDR, posted 01-21-2023 6:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1841 by Percy, posted 01-22-2023 10:21 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5920
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1839 of 1956 (905280)
01-21-2023 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1837 by Percy
01-21-2023 8:16 AM


Re: Meaning and Purpose
Percy writes:
Why must life have a purpose? Maybe it just is.
GDR writes:
That's certainly reasonable but I just disagree.
Percy writes:
My position on "Must life have a purpose?" is actually "I don't know." I was just asking you to explain why life must have a purpose.
I should have been a little more specific when I answered. It isn't that I think it must have a purpose, it is that I think it does, but not that it must must. As you brought up earlier, pretty much everyone finds purpose in life one way or another. For some, (as I said), it would be to be a good parent, for some it might be to accumulate wealth and unfortunately for too many it might just be finding a way to survive.
However, if, we are theistic or even deistic it would seem likely that who or whatever is the intelligence responsible for our existence it seems reasonable to believe that there is a purpose beyond the existence that we know.
Percy writes:
Consider the possibility that there was once microbial life on Mars a few billion years ago that went extinct as the planet dried up and its atmosphere escaped into space. Would that life have had a purpose?
Who knows? Maybe it was first effort that didn't work out.
Percy writes:
Or what if there had been no asteroid 66 million years ago with the result that dinosaurs still ruled the Earth, pterosaurs still ruled the sky, plesiosaurs still ruled the seas, mammals were still small and relegated to underground niches, and intelligent life had never evolved. Would that life have a purpose?
Beats me. I can't see working with hypotheticals here. We can only deal with life as it is.
Percy writes:
Morality is fundamental to your point. What is moral? Isn't morality relative?
I don't see it as being what we do, but it is about the motivation that drives what we do. I'd would say that if our motivation was self serving at the expense of others it is immoral, most things we do are morally neutral and if we do something to serve others by giving of the self, then it is moral.
Percy writes:
If I'm recalling your recent discussion with Tangle correctly, he pointed out that what you're calling worshipful behavior is just being a decent person, and I resent your contention that I'm behaving worshipfully when I behave decently. "Worship" has multiple definitions, but the one that is appropriate for this thread is "reverence or adoration of a deity." None of the definitions of worship is "behaving decently." We understand your point perfectly, but you're misusing the word.

Also, by employing that definition you imply that by behaving decently we're actually engaging in worship that demonstrates evidence of God. I resent attempts like this to involuntarily include us in the God club by in essence saying, "You may say you don't believe in God, but your behavior says you not only believe in him but worship him."

Bottom line: behaving decently is not a form of worship.
Actually, "behaving decently" was Tangle's expression. I don't actually agree with anything that you are saying I believe. I'm just saying that when we do something in our lives that requires us to give of the self, then we are serving God whether or not we believe in His existence. That is actually pretty consistent with CS Lewis in both "The Great Divorce" and "The Last Battle".

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1837 by Percy, posted 01-21-2023 8:16 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1842 by Percy, posted 01-22-2023 3:06 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5920
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 1840 of 1956 (905281)
01-21-2023 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1838 by Phat
01-21-2023 9:18 AM


Re: Meaning and Purpose
Phat writes:
Do you believe in open borders? WWJD?
You do know I'm a Canuck eh?
It's a tough question with no simple answer. Unfortunately this has become highly politicized which complicates the issue as there are all of the political agendas behind much of what is going on.
Firstly in my view we are called to love our neighbours including Mexicans as well as those from other countries south of Mexico. There are problems though as I understand the situation with an open border. I read that there is a significant of drug dealing cartel members crossing the border and resulting in the death, and social problems for many including those come across with them.
I personally contend that the best thing that the US, and Canada for that matter, can do is to establish agreements with Mexico to put in place some agreement that works better than what exists today and then forge agreements that provides for employment in those countries so they can prosper in their own cultures and families.
It does seem difficult to see all of these folks coming into the US and being able to provide for themselves, although I gather that a great number of so-called illegal immigrants are pretty much essential to the economy in many areas.
Beyond that I don't have enough information or understanding or go further than that, and may have gone to far already.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1838 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 9:18 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21346
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


(4)
Message 1841 of 1956 (905285)
01-22-2023 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1838 by Phat
01-21-2023 9:18 AM


Re: Meaning and Purpose
Phat writes:
Do you believe in open borders? WWJD?
WWJD? You have to ask? Render unto Caesar. Borders would mean nothing to Jesus. We are all God's children. Border's are Godless and artificial constructions of men.
Is it our job to feed every needy mouth in town or should we worry about our families(our own) first?
Wasn't Jesus confusing about family? In one of the gospels didn't he tell his disciples to reject family?
Anyway, the answer is obvious. You must with regret attend to the needs of your family before the needs of others.
But I think the US can afford to let a few million desperate people into the country. We already let in roughly a million a year, so upping it to two or three million for a few consecutive years isn't going to hurt. They already get in illegally anyway. It would be foolish to think that migrants reach the border, see the walls and border patrols and the river, then return to Honduras or wherever. They try and try and try, getting better at it each time and finding more savvy and reliable collaborators, and eventually they succeed.
If I were trying to get into the US illegally I would go to Tijuana or Ensenada or maybe Matamores on the other coast and rent a boat because the coastline has numerous inlets and few patrols. Googling this I see it's becoming a more common method.
What makes people question your Christian charity is that you don't seem to care about the people clamoring at our borders. You just want them to go away, and whatever the government has to do to make that happen seems to be fine with you.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1838 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 9:18 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21346
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1842 of 1956 (905304)
01-22-2023 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1839 by GDR
01-21-2023 5:55 PM


Re: Meaning and Purpose
GDR writes:
I should have been a little more specific when I answered. It isn't that I think it must have a purpose, it is that I think it does, but not that it must must. As you brought up earlier, pretty much everyone finds purpose in life one way or another. For some, (as I said), it would be to be a good parent, for some it might be to accumulate wealth and unfortunately for too many it might just be finding a way to survive.
Sure, we agree as far as individuals finding purpose in life. But I was thinking more broadly, as you sort of allude to here:
However, if, we are theistic or even deistic it would seem likely that who or whatever is the intelligence responsible for our existence it seems reasonable to believe that there is a purpose beyond the existence that we know.
Does mankind have a purpose? Does life?
Percy writes:
Morality is fundamental to your point. What is moral? Isn't morality relative?
I don't see it as being what we do, but it is about the motivation that drives what we do. I'd would say that if our motivation was self serving at the expense of others it is immoral, most things we do are morally neutral and if we do something to serve others by giving of the self, then it is moral.
It's 1850. You make a great personal sacrifice to provide your daughter's family a slave. Moral?
Morality is hopelessly relative. There are no general criteria for defining what is moral.
Actually, "behaving decently" was Tangle's expression.
Uh, yes, I said it was Tangle. You quoted me saying it. I didn't recall the exact phrase "behaving decently," but I said it was Tangle: "If I'm recalling your recent discussion with Tangle correctly, he pointed out that what you're calling worshipful behavior is just being a decent person..."
I don't actually agree with anything that you are saying I believe.
You say you don't agree with what I say you believe, but I quoted your own words saying that that's exactly what you believe. Here it is again from your Message 1836:
GDR in Message 1836 writes:
I contend we worship God by following His call to love our neighbour and care for other life forms and for the planet itself.
This is what Tangle called behaving decently, and you're claiming that by behaving decently "we worship God." I resent and reject that claim. I can't believe you're denying you said this, because you say it yet again in this message:
I'm just saying that when we do something in our lives that requires us to give of the self, then we are serving God whether or not we believe in His existence.
You're actually serving the flying spaghetti monster, whether or not you believe in His existence.
That is actually pretty consistent with CS Lewis in both "The Great Divorce" and "The Last Battle".
Well, if CS Lewis says it then it must be true.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1839 by GDR, posted 01-21-2023 5:55 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1843 by Theodoric, posted 01-22-2023 6:12 PM Percy has not replied
 Message 1848 by GDR, posted 01-23-2023 2:46 PM Percy has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8082
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1843 of 1956 (905309)
01-22-2023 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1842 by Percy
01-22-2023 3:06 PM


Re: Meaning and Purpose
CS Lewis was a bit of a hack. Not sure why people think that his children's stories and apologetics are so great.
CS Lewis's literary legacy: 'dodgy and unpleasant' or 'exceptionally good'? | CS Lewis | The Guardian

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1842 by Percy, posted 01-22-2023 3:06 PM Percy has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2202
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1844 of 1956 (905316)
01-23-2023 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1704 by Tangle
01-08-2023 10:52 AM


Re: I Again Think GDR has Given Up On This Thread
Tangle writes:
But of course now I know it to be nonsense, just like you do. Only Catholics believe it to be the actual body of Christ. Crazy people.
""I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”  So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;  he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day
."
John 6:51-54
"Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.”  And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you;  for this is my blood of the[e] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."
Matt 26:26-28
So-called Christians who don't believe in the Real Presence aren't true Christians. Their watered-down version of Christianity is unbiblical, amateurish, erroneous and fake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1704 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2023 10:52 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1845 by Phat, posted 01-23-2023 10:39 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1846 by ringo, posted 01-23-2023 10:50 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 1847 by Percy, posted 01-23-2023 12:35 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1849 by GDR, posted 01-23-2023 2:56 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17033
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1845 of 1956 (905317)
01-23-2023 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1844 by Dredge
01-23-2023 10:27 AM


Dredging Up An Argument
Dredge writes:
So-called Christians who don't believe in the Real Presence aren't true Christians. Their watered-down version of Christianity is unbiblical, amateurish, erroneous and fake.
Fair enough. What, though of self professed Roman Catholics who don't believe in Apostolic Succession? Surely you agree that Pope Francis is not a direct spiritual descendant of the Apostle Peter?

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1844 by Dredge, posted 01-23-2023 10:27 AM Dredge has not replied

  
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