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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
Taq
Member
Posts: 10199
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 106 of 2932 (898185)
09-20-2022 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Kleinman
09-19-2022 9:30 PM


Re: First
Kleinman writes:
How many beneficial mutations do humans have compared to chimpanzees to account for their population difference?
We can do some back of the envelope calculations. There are about 40 million mutations that separate humans and chimps, so we can split those between the two for 20 million each.
If we go with a high estimate of functional sequence at 10% of the human genome, then that puts us at 2 million mutations in functional sequence. If 10% of those are beneficial, then we are at 200,000 beneficial mutations. This would include indels, both large and small. These numbers exclude genomic arrangements which aren't massive in numbers, but could be important.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Kleinman, posted 09-19-2022 9:30 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 12:20 PM Taq has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 454 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 107 of 2932 (898186)
09-20-2022 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by nwr
09-20-2022 11:13 AM


Re: Apples and oranges
Kleinman:
Are you implying that there are no beneficial mutations in all the genetic differences between humans and chimps?
nwr:
No. Rather, I am saying that the comparison is meaningless. What is beneficial for a human might not be beneficial for a chimp. What is beneficial is a relative evaluation, depending on the way of life of the species where the mutation shows up. Chimps and humans have different ways of living. And, by the way, those differences evolved.

So you are claiming that there are beneficial mutational differences between humans and chimps. So what are those mutational differences that enable humans to achieve a population over 7 billion while chimpanzees have only about 300,000 members in their population. What beneficial mutations give humans the ability to survive and reproduce in the way of life of this species?
Kleinman:
If so, why are there over 7 billion humans and only about 300,000 chimps on earth?
nwr:
That's not relevant to anything. You are making false assumptions about evolution. Yes, humans make for better humans than would chimps. But chimps make for better chimps than would humans. You cannot directly compare them like that.

Is my assumption that there are more than 7 billion humans and only 300,000 chimps on earth wrong? You assume that humans and chimps come from a common ancestor. Why do humans have the reproductive fitness able to achieve a population of greater than 7 billion while chimpanzees have only achieved a population of 300,000? What beneficial mutations give humans this improvement in reproductive fitness?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by nwr, posted 09-20-2022 11:13 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Taq, posted 09-20-2022 12:04 PM Kleinman has not replied
 Message 118 by nwr, posted 09-20-2022 12:50 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10199
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 108 of 2932 (898187)
09-20-2022 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Kleinman
09-20-2022 9:10 AM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
Try something simpler like applying conservation of energy to the Lenski experiment. What are the energy sources available to the bacteria?
Ultimately, the energy source is the fusion of hydrogen and helium in the Sun. Energetic photons are released by the Sun due to fusion, those energetic particles drive the formation of sugars and higher energy metabolites in plants, and those energy containing molecules (e.g. glucose and citrate) are fed to the bacteria.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 9:10 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 12:25 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10199
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 109 of 2932 (898188)
09-20-2022 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Kleinman
09-20-2022 12:01 PM


Re: Apples and oranges
Kleinman writes:
So you are claiming that there are beneficial mutational differences between humans and chimps.
How else would you explain the physical differences between chimps and humans? If our physical differences are not due to differences in the sequence of our genomes then please tell us what causes those physical differences.
What beneficial mutations give humans the ability to survive and reproduce in the way of life of this species?
They are among the 40 million differences between our genomes.
You assume that humans and chimps come from a common ancestor.
We conclude that humans and chimps share a common ancestor because of mountains of evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 12:01 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 454 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 110 of 2932 (898189)
09-20-2022 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by ringo
09-20-2022 11:47 AM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
What are the energy sources available to the bacteria?
Ringo:
Glucose

I'll give you partial credit for that one. Citrate is also available, and some may argue there is thermal energy available.
Do you believe it takes energy to replicate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by ringo, posted 09-20-2022 11:47 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Taq, posted 09-20-2022 12:10 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 112 by ringo, posted 09-20-2022 12:16 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10199
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 111 of 2932 (898190)
09-20-2022 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Kleinman
09-20-2022 12:05 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
I'll give you partial credit for that one. Citrate is also available, and some may argue there is thermal energy available.

Do you believe it takes energy to replicate?
E. coli won't replicate in warm distilled water, or even warm saline.
We all agree that it takes energy to reproduce. What are you on about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 12:05 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 12:30 PM Taq has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 112 of 2932 (898191)
09-20-2022 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Kleinman
09-20-2022 12:05 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
I'll give you partial credit for that one. Citrate is also available, and some may argue there is thermal energy available.
I just did a quick Google and it only mentioned glucose. That's all I needed to suggest that the question is silly.
Kleinman writes:
Do you believe it takes energy to replicate?
Evolution happens at the population level. You seem to be thinking on the wrong scale.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 12:05 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 12:39 PM ringo has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 454 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 113 of 2932 (898192)
09-20-2022 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Taq
09-20-2022 11:53 AM


Re: First
Kleinman:
How many beneficial mutations do humans have compared to chimpanzees to account for their population difference?
Taq:
We can do some back of the envelope calculations. There are about 40 million mutations that separate humans and chimps, so we can split those between the two for 20 million each.

If we go with a high estimate of functional sequence at 10% of the human genome, then that puts us at 2 million mutations in functional sequence. If 10% of those are beneficial, then we are at 200,000 beneficial mutations. This would include indels, both large and small. These numbers exclude genomic arrangements which aren't massive in numbers, but could be important.

Does every human on earth today have these 200,000 beneficial mutations?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Taq, posted 09-20-2022 11:53 AM Taq has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 454 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 114 of 2932 (898193)
09-20-2022 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Taq
09-20-2022 12:01 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
Try something simpler like applying conservation of energy to the Lenski experiment. What are the energy sources available to the bacteria?
Taq:
Ultimately, the energy source is the fusion of hydrogen and helium in the Sun. Energetic photons are released by the Sun due to fusion, those energetic particles drive the formation of sugars and higher energy metabolites in plants, and those energy containing molecules (e.g. glucose and citrate) are fed to the bacteria.

Do you think that fusion energy could be used directly in Lenski experiment? Do you think that E Coli can do photosynthesis?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Taq, posted 09-20-2022 12:01 PM Taq has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 454 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 115 of 2932 (898194)
09-20-2022 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Taq
09-20-2022 12:10 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
I'll give you partial credit for that one. Citrate is also available, and some may argue there is thermal energy available.

Do you believe it takes energy to replicate?
Taq:
E. coli won't replicate in warm distilled water, or even warm saline.

We all agree that it takes energy to reproduce. What are you on about?

Biological evolutionary competition (Darwinian competition) is a conservation of energy (first law of thermodynamics) process. I wrote a short paper that explains it in more detail, you can read it here:
The Physics of Darwinian Evolution

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Taq, posted 09-20-2022 12:10 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Taq, posted 09-20-2022 1:53 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 454 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 116 of 2932 (898195)
09-20-2022 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by ringo
09-20-2022 12:16 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
I'll give you partial credit for that one. Citrate is also available, and some may argue there is thermal energy available.
ringo:
I just did a quick Google and it only mentioned glucose. That's all I needed to suggest that the question is silly.

Try doing a search using "Lenski experiment citrate"
Kleinman:
Do you believe it takes energy to replicate?
ringo:
Evolution happens at the population level. You seem to be thinking on the wrong scale.

Even Taq realizes that E Coli won't replicate in distilled water or even saline solution. They need energy in a form that they can metabolize.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by ringo, posted 09-20-2022 12:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 09-20-2022 12:42 PM Kleinman has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 117 of 2932 (898196)
09-20-2022 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Kleinman
09-20-2022 12:39 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
Even Taq realizes that E Coli won't replicate in distilled water or even saline solution. They need energy in a form that they can metabolize.
Duh.
But what has replication at the cellular level got to do with evolution?

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 12:39 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 1:13 PM ringo has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6445
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 118 of 2932 (898197)
09-20-2022 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Kleinman
09-20-2022 12:01 PM


Re: Apples and oranges
So you are claiming that there are beneficial mutational differences between humans and chimps.
Your mistake is to treat "beneficial" as an absolute. It isn't. What is beneficial is relative to the population.
Why do humans have the reproductive fitness able to achieve a population of greater than 7 billion while chimpanzees have only achieved a population of 300,000?
Likewise, you are treating "fitness" as an absolute. It isn't. Again, it is relative to the population.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 12:01 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 1:25 PM nwr has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 454 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 119 of 2932 (898198)
09-20-2022 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by ringo
09-20-2022 12:42 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
Even Taq realizes that E Coli won't replicate in distilled water or even saline solution. They need energy in a form that they can metabolize.
ringo:
Duh.

But what has replication at the cellular level got to do with evolution?

That's an appropriate question. Replication (in particular replication of the genome) gives the possibility of a mutation. That is a second law of thermodynamics process that operates as a Markov chain random walk. I give a simple explanation of how that works in this paper:
The Physics of Darwinian Evolution
Anything that slows replication such as biological competition will slow that random walk. The occurrence of a reasonable probability of an adaptive mutation occurring somewhere in a population takes lots of replicatiions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 09-20-2022 12:42 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by ringo, posted 09-20-2022 1:17 PM Kleinman has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 120 of 2932 (898199)
09-20-2022 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Kleinman
09-20-2022 1:13 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
The occurrence of a reasonable probability of an adaptive mutation occurring somewhere in a population takes lots of replicatiions.
*shrug*
But evolution does happen. So the rate of mutation doesn't seem to be significant.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 1:13 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 1:30 PM ringo has replied

  
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