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Author | Topic: Choosing a faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9076 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
Christians believe in the historicity of Jesus? Weird.
You refuse to address what I have presented repeatedly about the historicity of Jesus. quote:https://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=page&t=8000&mlist... What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9076 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
We have no trouble paying our bills. The US never has.
Faith writes:
WTF are you talking about? WTF does this have to do with treaties with indigenous tribes? Treaties are Constitutional Law. They are the law of the land. There are plenty of moderate or even right wing thinkers in the South American population. Lets get them over here too...without promising the world a Rose garden.More hate and gish gallop form Phat. What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9076 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
Faith writes:
So you don't believe in a Republic form of government? You don't want to follow the Constitution? Not some party that clings to power with a 5% majority.Not surprised. Fascism sounds good doesnt it. What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9076 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
oops
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
Stile writes:
But you restrict yourself to the physical world. You ignore the question about why and even how the physical world exists. You look at all the various processes and conclude that these processes, one after another, just happened out of the blue by chance. All of the natural processes that you claim as evidence lead you to your naturalistic conclusions and disregard any idea that these processes are there as a result of external intelligence. Looking for God, everywhere, and not finding God - is evidence that God does not exist.Of course, we don't only "not find God" - we always find natural explanations for thing people used to say "only God can do that!" They were all wrong. You're just one more in the same line. I agree that nobody can know that a pre-existing intelligence exists at all We come to our own conclusions and we have come to different ones. So, my theistic conclusion make psooible my Christian faith.GDR writes: To which you replied: I actually start with the belief in a theistic deity because that makes a great deal more sense to me that does a wholly materialistic world.Stile writes: Perhaps that's the problem. You start with "something that makes sense to GDR." When this thing that "makes sense to GDR" is put up against evidence that casts doubt on it - you ignore the evidence and refuse to accept that the thing that "makes sense to GDR" may be untrue. I don't start with "something that makes sense to Stile." I don't hold anything that "makes sense to Stile" as impenetrable to evidence that casts doubt on it. There are plenty of things that "made sense to Stile" that were shown to be untrue by evidence. -there were people I thought liked me. Turns out they didn't. -I used to think "auras" didn't exist. Turns out they do.. for some people, anyway. Certain kinds of synesthetes are able to "see auras" around people. It's a very real thing. Even science has studied this "supernatural" topic and gained lots of useful information from it. Our best-known-method for identifying truth has shown us over and over again that "things that make sense to us" doesn't mean jack-all when identifying the truth about reality. That's why it's a terrible place to build a hill to die on with. Because you're gonna die. And everyone will see that your hill was nothing but a house of cards. If I can be shown evidence that my beliefs are without foundation then I'll change mv views. You keep saying that processes are evidence of the non-existence of a deity. That is like saying that an automobile assembly line is the sole cause of the cars they produce. Just like saying that the assembly just occurred is the same thing as you saying that the processes responsible for life just occurred, and that seems to make sense to you.
Stile writes: That argument is based on the pre-supposition that there is no external intelligence.
Um... what more do you need? Why isn't proving that it's impossible enough to show you that it didn't happen? Stile writes: If the supernatural exists then how do you know that it didn't happen? You weren't there to observe it, and you discount those who said that they were there and that it did.
A materialistic view doesn't show it's impossible. It's impossible because it never happens, and never did happen. Regardless of a materialistic view, or a supernatural view, or a polkadot view or any other view you'd like to have. GDR writes: My first priority is the truth, while realizing that it isn't something I can know to be true.Stile writes: That's not true.You said it yourself - your starting point is "holding an idea that makes sense to GDR" - that clearly and brazenly flies in the face of having the truth as your first priority. You can't wriggle out of this - you either follow "our best known method for identifying the truth about reality" and hold "finding the truth" as your highest priority - or you don't. Why aren't you able to be honest about this? There's nothing wrong with holding a belief. There's nothing wrong with holding an idea that "makes sense to GDR." It's just not compatible with also holding "identifying the truth of our reality" as your highest priority. That doesn't really say anything. People form conclusions on all sorts of things because it makes sense to them. You don't form a conclusion that doesn't make sense to you unless you later find some evidence that causes one to think that it no longer makes sense. I have seen zero evidence that shows that my conclusions are wrong. Showing me examples of how life or even emotions evolved is not evidence of the non existence of an intelligence responsible for those processes and by extension our lives.. Using evolutionary theory as an example we see an incredible process that brought life as we know it into existence which sure seems to show the signs of intelligent design.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9
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Phat writes:
Hi Paht One of the Pastors whom I follow wrote about 20 reasons that we are in the end times. I will share it with you: People from Paul on, (remember Faith even had a precise date which came and went), talked about end times and it being near. I hold a different view of end times that is consistent with scripture that I suggest is even more consistent when we realize that things like Jesus coming on a cloud at the climax of some earth destroying event. Those apocalyptic passages were about the result of a violent Jewish revolution. I contend that the end of time comes to us all as individuals upon physical death. We model our beliefs on Jesus, and He was resurrected right after physical death. I suggest that the end of the world as we know it will come at the hands of mankind through a nuclear war or a human concocted virus. Maybe we can even find a greater way of killing each other that will do the job.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
GDR: Given that that is true, why doesn't that suggest to you that people are confusing a biological function imbedded in people (who are evolved apes) with religions and gods? What is the most conservative assumption here? Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7
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GDR writes: But you restrict yourself to the physical world. You ignore the question about why and even how the physical world exists. You look at all the various processes and conclude that these processes, one after another, just happened out of the blue by chance. All of the natural processes that you claim as evidence lead you to your naturalistic conclusions and disregard any idea that these processes are there as a result of external intelligence. If a deity were controlling the natural world why couldn't we use observations of the natural world to evidence the actions of this deity? We conclude that natural processes happen out of the blue by chance because that is how they behave. We don't assume it. We conclude chance because of the evidence. Everything we see is consistent with probabilities we would expect from natural processes.
GDR writes: I actually start with the belief in a theistic deity because that makes a great deal more sense to me that does a wholly materialistic world. If you started with the belief in magical leprechauns you would probable conclude that magical leprechauns make the most sense. That's what starting with a belief leads to, that belief. The fact that you have to start with that belief instead of following the evidence to that belief says a lot.
If I can be shown evidence that my beliefs are without foundation then I'll change mv views. You keep saying that processes are evidence of the non-existence of a deity. That is like saying that an automobile assembly line is the sole cause of the cars they produce. Just like saying that the assembly just occurred is the same thing as you saying that the processes responsible for life just occurred, and that seems to make sense to you. What supernatural forces do you need to invoke in order to explain the operation of an assembly line? From where I sit, you only need naturalistic processes which includes what humans do. What if we look at mutations, in real time? What would you expect to see with respect to the distribution of new mutations in humans if there was an intelligent being involved as compared to just chance? There are new mutations that cause horrific diseases in humans, so how does that square with intelligence? We also have a probability distribution that we would expect from natural processes that happen by chance where we should get a predictable number of transition and transversion mutations. Through chance, we would expect harmful, neutral, and beneficial mutations to all occur. How would it be different with a deity involved?
If the supernatural exists then how do you know that it didn't happen? The burden of proof lies with those who claim the supernatural is involved. At a minimum, you would need to deal with the law of parsimony. If the evidence is consistent with natural processes then there is no reason to invoke the supernatural.
I have seen zero evidence that shows that my conclusions are wrong. What evidence would show your conclusions to be wrong? Is there any evidence that could change your mind? For example, what observations in the realm of new mutations would change your mind?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Taq writes: We could, if we took into account that the experiment not only involved observation of the natural world but of our own communion with it and other people. The only "evidence" we would find would be our own reactions to our observations, our own feelings and thoughts on the data, and at the end of the day our choice in accepting or rejecting said Deity. In short, there will never be objective evidence of a Deity until and unless such a Deity chose to reveal it to us individually or collectively. If a deity were controlling the natural world why couldn't we use observations of the natural world to evidence the actions of this deity? The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7
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Phat writes: We could, if we took into account that the experiment not only involved observation of the natural world but of our own communion with it and other people. The only "evidence" we would find would be our own reactions to our observations, our own feelings and thoughts on the data, and at the end of the day our choice in accepting or rejecting said Deity. Why would that be the only evidence? Your proposed evidence is indistinguishable from people believing in a non-existent deity.
In short, there will never be objective evidence of a Deity until and unless such a Deity chose to reveal it to us individually or collectively. Again, that is indistinguishable from a universe where no such deity exists.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
Again, yes. This topic has already been through that. This again is from This wiki site.... Some historians may believe that a person named Jesus existed but the actual details of his life, especially the miracles, are dubious. You might as well say that James Bond must have existed because Ian Fleming mentioned him. But Dr. No did not exist. Goldfinger did not exist, Ernst Stavro Blofeld did not exist.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Do you want the US to have the reputation of a nation that breaks its word?
Dont drag up 150 year old treaties .... Phat writes:
You're an idiot. All you Leftists want is more other leftists to join your cause and vote you in office for perpetuity.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
It has nothing to do with anything global. Where do you get such nonsense? We will take the issue of reparations global and see how it plays out. It's a US problem ONLY. Canada has a similar problem with our indigenous people and we ARE trying to solve it (albeit very slowly). So shove your bullshit about it being "impossible". It IS being done.
Phat writes:
It's NOT about the planet. It's about YOUR nation doing what's right. The planet has more pressing issues than bending over backwards to make every global citizen (financially) equal. Stop being such an evil bastard.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
NosyNed writes: He said nothing at all about a designer. All he said is that religion itself is a part of (and an interesting part) of human culture. He's also saying that fighting over the existence of gods isn't good way to help people learn. Ya, you're right. Thanks.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9
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ringo writes:
You guys do like to bring up characters that were never meant to be taken as historical and compare that to writings that were written to be taken as historical. Again, yes. This topic has already been through that. Some historians may believe that a person named Jesus existed but the actual details of his life, especially the miracles, are dubious. You might as well say that James Bond must have existed because Ian Fleming mentioned him. But Dr. No did not exist. Goldfinger did not exist, Ernst Stavro Blofeld did not exist. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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