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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2041 of 3694 (906072)
02-06-2023 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 2036 by GDR
02-06-2023 3:45 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Christians believe in the historicity of Jesus? Weird.
You refuse to address what I have presented repeatedly about the historicity of Jesus.
quote:
TACITUS (c.112CE)
Roughly 80 years after the alleged events Tacitus allegedly wrote a (now) famous passage about "Christ" - this passage has several problems however:
* Tacitus uses the term "procurator", used in his later times, but not correct for the actual period, when "prefect" was used.
* Tacitus names the person as "Christ", when Roman records could not possibly have used this name (it would have been "Jesus, son of Joseph" or similar.)
* Tacitus accepts the recent advent of Christianity, which was against Roman practice (to only allow ancient and accepted cults and religions.)
* (No-one refers to this passage for a millenium, even early Christians who actively sought such passages.)
Thus, even if the Tacitus passage is not a later interpolation,
it is not evidence of a historical Jesus based on earlier Roman records,
but
merely a few details which Tacitus gathered from Christian stories circulating in his time (c.f. Pliny.)
PLINY the Younger (c.112CE)
About 80 years after the alleged events, (and over 40 years after the war) Pliny refered to Christians who worshipped a "Christ" as a god, but there is no reference to a historical Jesus or Gospel events.
So,
Pliny is not evidence for a historical Jesus of Nazareth,
just evidence for 2nd century Christians who worshipped a Christ.
JOSEPHUS (c.96CE)
The famous Testamonium Flavianum is considered probably the best evidence for Jesus, yet it has some serious problems :
* the T.F. as it stands uses clearly Christian phrases and names Christ as Messiah, it could not possibly have been written by the Jew Josephus (who refused to acknowledge anyone "messiah"),
* The T.F. comes in several versions of various ages,
* The T.F. was not mentioned by Origen when he reviewed Josephus - Origen even says Josephus does NOT call Jesus the Messiah, showing the passage was not present in that earlier era.
* The T.F. first showed up in manuscripts of Eusebius, and was still absent from some manuscripts as late as 8th century.
* (The other tiny passage in Josephus is probably a later interpolation.)
An analysis of Josephus can be found here:
http://www.humanists.net/jesuspuzzle/supp10.htm
In short - this passage is possibly a total forgery (or at best a corrupt form of a lost original.)
But,
its COULD be actual evidence for Jesus. late, corrupt, but just POSSIBLY real historical evidence.
Such is the weakness of the evidence that this suspect passage is considered some of the best "evidence" for a historical Jesus of Nazareth.
https://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=page&t=8000&mlist...

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2036 by GDR, posted 02-06-2023 3:45 PM GDR has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2042 of 3694 (906073)
02-06-2023 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 2037 by Phat
02-06-2023 3:52 PM


Re: again, Phat needs to learn the basics.s...but
We have no trouble paying our bills. The US never has.
Faith writes:
There are plenty of moderate or even right wing thinkers in the South American population. Lets get them over here too...without promising the world a Rose garden.
WTF are you talking about? WTF does this have to do with treaties with indigenous tribes? Treaties are Constitutional Law. They are the law of the land.
More hate and gish gallop form Phat.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2037 by Phat, posted 02-06-2023 3:52 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2043 of 3694 (906074)
02-06-2023 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 2038 by Phat
02-06-2023 3:55 PM


Re: Im going to come across as an entitled ass...but
Faith writes:
Not some party that clings to power with a 5% majority.
So you don't believe in a Republic form of government? You don't want to follow the Constitution?
Not surprised. Fascism sounds good doesnt it.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2038 by Phat, posted 02-06-2023 3:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2044 of 3694 (906075)
02-06-2023 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 2038 by Phat
02-06-2023 3:55 PM


double post
oops

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2038 by Phat, posted 02-06-2023 3:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2045 of 3694 (906078)
02-06-2023 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1956 by Stile
02-02-2023 9:04 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Stile writes:
Looking for God, everywhere, and not finding God - is evidence that God does not exist.
Of course, we don't only "not find God" - we always find natural explanations for thing people used to say "only God can do that!" They were all wrong. You're just one more in the same line.
But you restrict yourself to the physical world. You ignore the question about why and even how the physical world exists. You look at all the various processes and conclude that these processes, one after another, just happened out of the blue by chance. All of the natural processes that you claim as evidence lead you to your naturalistic conclusions and disregard any idea that these processes are there as a result of external intelligence.
I agree that nobody can know that a pre-existing intelligence exists at all We come to our own conclusions and we have come to different ones.
So, my theistic conclusion make psooible my Christian faith.
GDR writes:
I actually start with the belief in a theistic deity because that makes a great deal more sense to me that does a wholly materialistic world.
To which you replied:
Stile writes:
Perhaps that's the problem.

You start with "something that makes sense to GDR."
When this thing that "makes sense to GDR" is put up against evidence that casts doubt on it - you ignore the evidence and refuse to accept that the thing that "makes sense to GDR" may be untrue.

I don't start with "something that makes sense to Stile."
I don't hold anything that "makes sense to Stile" as impenetrable to evidence that casts doubt on it.
There are plenty of things that "made sense to Stile" that were shown to be untrue by evidence.
-there were people I thought liked me. Turns out they didn't.
-I used to think "auras" didn't exist. Turns out they do.. for some people, anyway. Certain kinds of synesthetes are able to "see auras" around people. It's a very real thing. Even science has studied this "supernatural" topic and gained lots of useful information from it.

Our best-known-method for identifying truth has shown us over and over again that "things that make sense to us" doesn't mean jack-all when identifying the truth about reality. That's why it's a terrible place to build a hill to die on with. Because you're gonna die. And everyone will see that your hill was nothing but a house of cards.
If I can be shown evidence that my beliefs are without foundation then I'll change mv views. You keep saying that processes are evidence of the non-existence of a deity. That is like saying that an automobile assembly line is the sole cause of the cars they produce. Just like saying that the assembly just occurred is the same thing as you saying that the processes responsible for life just occurred, and that seems to make sense to you.
Stile writes:
Um... what more do you need? Why isn't proving that it's impossible enough to show you that it didn't happen?
That argument is based on the pre-supposition that there is no external intelligence.
Stile writes:
A materialistic view doesn't show it's impossible. It's impossible because it never happens, and never did happen. Regardless of a materialistic view, or a supernatural view, or a polkadot view or any other view you'd like to have.
If the supernatural exists then how do you know that it didn't happen? You weren't there to observe it, and you discount those who said that they were there and that it did.
GDR writes:
My first priority is the truth, while realizing that it isn't something I can know to be true.
Stile writes:
That's not true.
You said it yourself - your starting point is "holding an idea that makes sense to GDR" - that clearly and brazenly flies in the face of having the truth as your first priority.

You can't wriggle out of this - you either follow "our best known method for identifying the truth about reality" and hold "finding the truth" as your highest priority - or you don't.

Why aren't you able to be honest about this?

There's nothing wrong with holding a belief.
There's nothing wrong with holding an idea that "makes sense to GDR."

It's just not compatible with also holding "identifying the truth of our reality" as your highest priority.
That doesn't really say anything. People form conclusions on all sorts of things because it makes sense to them. You don't form a conclusion that doesn't make sense to you unless you later find some evidence that causes one to think that it no longer makes sense. I have seen zero evidence that shows that my conclusions are wrong. Showing me examples of how life or even emotions evolved is not evidence of the non existence of an intelligence responsible for those processes and by extension our lives.. Using evolutionary theory as an example we see an incredible process that brought life as we know it into existence which sure seems to show the signs of intelligent design.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1956 by Stile, posted 02-02-2023 9:04 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2048 by Taq, posted 02-06-2023 6:52 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 2087 by Stile, posted 02-13-2023 10:59 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 2046 of 3694 (906080)
02-06-2023 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 2010 by Phat
02-04-2023 3:06 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Phat writes:
One of the Pastors whom I follow wrote about 20 reasons that we are in the end times. I will share it with you:
Hi Paht
People from Paul on, (remember Faith even had a precise date which came and went), talked about end times and it being near. I hold a different view of end times that is consistent with scripture that I suggest is even more consistent when we realize that things like Jesus coming on a cloud at the climax of some earth destroying event. Those apocalyptic passages were about the result of a violent Jewish revolution.
I contend that the end of time comes to us all as individuals upon physical death. We model our beliefs on Jesus, and He was resurrected right after physical death.
I suggest that the end of the world as we know it will come at the hands of mankind through a nuclear war or a human concocted virus. Maybe we can even find a greater way of killing each other that will do the job.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2010 by Phat, posted 02-04-2023 3:06 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2047 of 3694 (906081)
02-06-2023 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 2039 by GDR
02-06-2023 4:00 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR:
There is a common thread that appears in every form of religion that I know of and also is there in the non-theistic world. Golden rule in religion I would say that is an acceptable norm for most societies or cultures, even though it is as often or maybe even more often than not ignored. It is more important to focus on that rather than simply arguing about any specific understanding of the world we live in.
Given that that is true, why doesn't that suggest to you that people are confusing a biological function imbedded in people (who are evolved apes) with religions and gods? What is the most conservative assumption here?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2039 by GDR, posted 02-06-2023 4:00 PM GDR has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 2048 of 3694 (906082)
02-06-2023 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2045 by GDR
02-06-2023 5:13 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
But you restrict yourself to the physical world. You ignore the question about why and even how the physical world exists. You look at all the various processes and conclude that these processes, one after another, just happened out of the blue by chance. All of the natural processes that you claim as evidence lead you to your naturalistic conclusions and disregard any idea that these processes are there as a result of external intelligence.
If a deity were controlling the natural world why couldn't we use observations of the natural world to evidence the actions of this deity?
We conclude that natural processes happen out of the blue by chance because that is how they behave. We don't assume it. We conclude chance because of the evidence. Everything we see is consistent with probabilities we would expect from natural processes.
GDR writes:
I actually start with the belief in a theistic deity because that makes a great deal more sense to me that does a wholly materialistic world.
If you started with the belief in magical leprechauns you would probable conclude that magical leprechauns make the most sense. That's what starting with a belief leads to, that belief.
The fact that you have to start with that belief instead of following the evidence to that belief says a lot.
If I can be shown evidence that my beliefs are without foundation then I'll change mv views. You keep saying that processes are evidence of the non-existence of a deity. That is like saying that an automobile assembly line is the sole cause of the cars they produce. Just like saying that the assembly just occurred is the same thing as you saying that the processes responsible for life just occurred, and that seems to make sense to you.
What supernatural forces do you need to invoke in order to explain the operation of an assembly line? From where I sit, you only need naturalistic processes which includes what humans do.
What if we look at mutations, in real time? What would you expect to see with respect to the distribution of new mutations in humans if there was an intelligent being involved as compared to just chance? There are new mutations that cause horrific diseases in humans, so how does that square with intelligence? We also have a probability distribution that we would expect from natural processes that happen by chance where we should get a predictable number of transition and transversion mutations. Through chance, we would expect harmful, neutral, and beneficial mutations to all occur. How would it be different with a deity involved?
If the supernatural exists then how do you know that it didn't happen?
The burden of proof lies with those who claim the supernatural is involved.
At a minimum, you would need to deal with the law of parsimony. If the evidence is consistent with natural processes then there is no reason to invoke the supernatural.
I have seen zero evidence that shows that my conclusions are wrong.
What evidence would show your conclusions to be wrong? Is there any evidence that could change your mind? For example, what observations in the realm of new mutations would change your mind?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2045 by GDR, posted 02-06-2023 5:13 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2049 by Phat, posted 02-07-2023 10:14 AM Taq has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2049 of 3694 (906100)
02-07-2023 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 2048 by Taq
02-06-2023 6:52 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Taq writes:
If a deity were controlling the natural world why couldn't we use observations of the natural world to evidence the actions of this deity?
We could, if we took into account that the experiment not only involved observation of the natural world but of our own communion with it and other people. The only "evidence" we would find would be our own reactions to our observations, our own feelings and thoughts on the data, and at the end of the day our choice in accepting or rejecting said Deity. In short, there will never be objective evidence of a Deity until and unless such a Deity chose to reveal it to us individually or collectively.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2048 by Taq, posted 02-06-2023 6:52 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2050 by Taq, posted 02-07-2023 10:58 AM Phat has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 2050 of 3694 (906115)
02-07-2023 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 2049 by Phat
02-07-2023 10:14 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Phat writes:
We could, if we took into account that the experiment not only involved observation of the natural world but of our own communion with it and other people. The only "evidence" we would find would be our own reactions to our observations, our own feelings and thoughts on the data, and at the end of the day our choice in accepting or rejecting said Deity.
Why would that be the only evidence? Your proposed evidence is indistinguishable from people believing in a non-existent deity.
In short, there will never be objective evidence of a Deity until and unless such a Deity chose to reveal it to us individually or collectively.
Again, that is indistinguishable from a universe where no such deity exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2049 by Phat, posted 02-07-2023 10:14 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2059 by Phat, posted 02-09-2023 1:25 AM Taq has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2051 of 3694 (906117)
02-07-2023 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 2036 by GDR
02-06-2023 3:45 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
This again is from This wiki site....
Again, yes. This topic has already been through that.
Some historians may believe that a person named Jesus existed but the actual details of his life, especially the miracles, are dubious.
You might as well say that James Bond must have existed because Ian Fleming mentioned him. But Dr. No did not exist. Goldfinger did not exist, Ernst Stavro Blofeld did not exist.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2036 by GDR, posted 02-06-2023 3:45 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2055 by GDR, posted 02-08-2023 7:57 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 2052 of 3694 (906118)
02-07-2023 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 2037 by Phat
02-06-2023 3:52 PM


Re: again, Phat needs to learn the basics.s...but
Phat writes:
Dont drag up 150 year old treaties ....
Do you want the US to have the reputation of a nation that breaks its word?
Phat writes:
All you Leftists want is more other leftists to join your cause and vote you in office for perpetuity.
You're an idiot.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2037 by Phat, posted 02-06-2023 3:52 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 2053 of 3694 (906119)
02-07-2023 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 2038 by Phat
02-06-2023 3:55 PM


Re: Im going to come across as an entitled ass...but
Phat writes:
We will take the issue of reparations global and see how it plays out.
It has nothing to do with anything global. Where do you get such nonsense?
It's a US problem ONLY.
Canada has a similar problem with our indigenous people and we ARE trying to solve it (albeit very slowly). So shove your bullshit about it being "impossible". It IS being done.
Phat writes:
The planet has more pressing issues than bending over backwards to make every global citizen (financially) equal.
It's NOT about the planet. It's about YOUR nation doing what's right.
Stop being such an evil bastard.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2038 by Phat, posted 02-06-2023 3:55 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2060 by Phat, posted 02-09-2023 1:29 AM ringo has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2054 of 3694 (906213)
02-08-2023 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2035 by NosyNed
02-06-2023 3:18 PM


Re: Greene's view
NosyNed writes:
He said nothing at all about a designer. All he said is that religion itself is a part of (and an interesting part) of human culture. He's also saying that fighting over the existence of gods isn't good way to help people learn.
Ya, you're right. Thanks.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2035 by NosyNed, posted 02-06-2023 3:18 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 2055 of 3694 (906214)
02-08-2023 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 2051 by ringo
02-07-2023 11:02 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
ringo writes:
Again, yes. This topic has already been through that.

Some historians may believe that a person named Jesus existed but the actual details of his life, especially the miracles, are dubious.

You might as well say that James Bond must have existed because Ian Fleming mentioned him. But Dr. No did not exist. Goldfinger did not exist, Ernst Stavro Blofeld did not exist.
You guys do like to bring up characters that were never meant to be taken as historical and compare that to writings that were written to be taken as historical.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2051 by ringo, posted 02-07-2023 11:02 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2056 by Theodoric, posted 02-08-2023 8:15 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 2062 by ringo, posted 02-09-2023 12:33 PM GDR has replied

  
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