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Author
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Topic: Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
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Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: 10-06-2016
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Message 2000 of 2932 (902334)
11-21-2022 5:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 1995 by AZPaul3
11-21-2022 5:11 PM
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Re: Kleinman does not know asexual vs sexual
AZPaul3:
Dredge, it hardly matters. You're wrong no matter how you spell it.
Yeah, right, like you are going to explain the Kishony and Lenski experiments. You can't even explain why the Colorado River is drying out so fast. Thank California which is dumping water from the Sierras into the ocean. I hope you like it dry, real dry.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1995 by AZPaul3, posted 11-21-2022 5:11 PM | | AZPaul3 has not replied |
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Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: 10-06-2016
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Message 2003 of 2932 (902337)
11-21-2022 5:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 2001 by AZPaul3
11-21-2022 5:34 PM
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Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
I have conversed several times with Lenski about his work
AZPaul3:
One way messages are not conversing. I don't believe you.
Who cares what you believe, it is wrong.
Kleinman:
This is the correct mathematics ...
AZPaul3:
Others have shown that it is not. I do not believe you.
Which one explained the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments? None of them have.
Kleinman:
the scientific community (that doesn't include you, you are not a scientist) will have to face facts.
AZPaul3:
We have the facts and none of them support your religious-inspired tripe.
You're a fraud, Kleinmen.
Yeah, you have the facts but they don't include the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski experiments. You have 200k retroviral infections that don't do a thing to a germ line when Taq gives one example of koalas that may go extinct from a single infection. You are brilliantly wrong and completely without facts, only silly speculation. I hope you like it dry, real dry.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2001 by AZPaul3, posted 11-21-2022 5:34 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2005 by AZPaul3, posted 11-21-2022 5:58 PM | | Kleinman has replied |
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Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: 10-06-2016
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Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Theodoric:
I would bet dollars to donuts that Lenski never responded to him.
Lenski just needs to learn some thermodynamics. And he's not the only biologist that is deficient in that training. There are plenty out there that don't know simple thermodynamics. But you are all such great scientists without understanding thermodynamics.
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Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: 10-06-2016
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Message 2006 of 2932 (902340)
11-21-2022 6:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 2005 by AZPaul3
11-21-2022 5:58 PM
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Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
Who cares what you believe, it is wrong.
AZPaul3:
I care. That's why I said that. And, I'm right.
Sure, you are right. About what, who knows?
Kleinman:
Which one explained the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments?
AZPaul3:
Not you, that's for sure. You put forth some bs muddled math and pat yourself on the back. But it's all wrong and you're the only one who can't see that.
But, then, you're on a religious mission. The facts mean nothing to you.
Sure, you are an expert in the facts. Fish evolve into mammals and reptiles evolve into birds, you are so smart.
Kleinman:
... the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski experiments.
... 200k retroviral infections
... koalas that may go extinctAZPaul3:
Run home to your lies.
That is a sad defense of your fraud, Kleinman.
You are an expert, in what, we don't know. But I hope you like it dry, real dry.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2005 by AZPaul3, posted 11-21-2022 5:58 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2007 by AZPaul3, posted 11-21-2022 6:28 PM | | Kleinman has replied |
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Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: 10-06-2016
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Message 2008 of 2932 (902342)
11-21-2022 6:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 2007 by AZPaul3
11-21-2022 6:28 PM
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Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
Fish evolve into mammals and reptiles evolve into birds, you are so smart.
AZPaul3:
I take it back. Not everything you say is a lie. You just made three factual observations in a row.
Of course, it is true. Too bad you can't explain how bacteria evolve resistance to an antibiotic and why cancer treatments fail. And I hope you like it dry, real dry.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2007 by AZPaul3, posted 11-21-2022 6:28 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2018 by AZPaul3, posted 11-22-2022 12:04 PM | | Kleinman has replied |
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Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: 10-06-2016
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Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Theodoric:
You have never had a conversation or correspondence with Lenski. You are a fraud.
You are wrong about so much, including this.
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Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: 10-06-2016
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Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Theodoric:
I have an email out to him. Let's see if he responds.
I doubt he will but I hope he does.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2011 by Theodoric, posted 11-22-2022 9:58 AM | | Theodoric has not replied |
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Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: 10-06-2016
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Message 2023 of 2932 (902388)
11-23-2022 9:17 AM
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Reply to: Message 2012 by Taq
11-22-2022 10:30 AM
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Re: Kleinman does not know asexual vs sexual
Kleinman:
So the only example you could come up with is making the koalas sick by destroying their immune system and possibly driving them to extinction.Taq:
That's all I need to counter your lie that retroviruses can't produce ERV's.
Yeah, your argument makes real sense, only 199,999 retroviral infections to go. This is what you get with 26 years in the lab. No one dies from a retroviral infection, in fact, a germ line cell can have 200k without any harm. This is the kind of garbage you come up with.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2012 by Taq, posted 11-22-2022 10:30 AM | | Taq has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2036 by Taq, posted 11-23-2022 10:32 AM | | Kleinman has replied |
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Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: 10-06-2016
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Message 2024 of 2932 (902389)
11-23-2022 9:19 AM
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Reply to: Message 2013 by Taq
11-22-2022 10:32 AM
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Re: Yet Another Example
Kleinman:
So you aren't going to explain how a phage makes UCD possible.Taq:
Another liar for Jesus.
I guess you aren't going to explain that one.
Kleinman:
Then have them explain why combination therapy works for treating HIV, weeds, and insects, because you certainly can't explain.Taq:
All I need to do is cite these papers to counter your lie that recombination plays no part in drug resistance in HIV.
You cite papers, I cite actual examples. Why doesn't recombination defeat these real examples of combination therapy? And when does recombination or population size defeat these treatments? You simply don't understand how population size affects biological evolution and how frequencies of variants determine the probability of a recombination event occurring. You didn't figure that out with your 26 years of research.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2013 by Taq, posted 11-22-2022 10:32 AM | | Taq has not replied |
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Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: 10-06-2016
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Message 2025 of 2932 (902390)
11-23-2022 9:21 AM
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Reply to: Message 2014 by Taq
11-22-2022 10:37 AM
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Re: Kleinman does not know asexual vs sexual
Dredge:
Tany is just being a good Darwinist ... a good Darwinist ignores any evidence that doesn't conform to Darwinist dictrine.
Taq:
You would have to present that evidence first before accusing people of ignoring it.
I showed Kleinman an experiment where the rate of beneficial adaptations was 1 in 10 million replications. Look at how he can't even address it, and then continues to claim that the rate is 1 in 1 billion, no matter what.
Look at the lies you peddled from the Discovery Institute dealing with ERV's.
I said, go for it, show how a phage makes UCD possible and you cry that I don't explain your experiment. Explain to us how this experiment changes descent with modification for a single evolutionary step. You won't because you know it is only a single evolutionary step when the Kishony experiment takes 5 evolutionary steps and Lenski's experiment takes about 100 evolutionary steps. And you are an idiot to think that 200k retroviral infections don't do any harm to a germ line cell. That's just plain stupid. Haven't you learned what HIV does to humans and what your retroviral infection does to koalas?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2014 by Taq, posted 11-22-2022 10:37 AM | | Taq has not replied |
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Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: 10-06-2016
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Message 2026 of 2932 (902391)
11-23-2022 9:26 AM
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Reply to: Message 2015 by ringo
11-22-2022 10:41 AM
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Re: Kleinman does not know asexual vs sexual
Kleinman:
It is easy to understand this better than them, they have no explanation.
ringo:
Itt's easy to THINK you understand better than them when you have an ego the size of Montana.
I have the physics and the math, that's all you need to understand the Kishony and Lenski experiments and descent with modification with and without competition.
Kleinman:
In fact, Lenski didn't understand why competition slows adaptation until I explained it to him.
ringo:
Show us where he acknowledges that.
Here's where he acknowleged that he doesn't know why competition slows evolution in the paper he edited.
Distribution of fixed beneficial mutations and the rate of adaptation in asexual populationsWhen large asexual populations adapt, competition between simultaneously segregating mutations slows the rate of adaptation and restricts the set of mutations that eventually fix. This phenomenon of interference arises from competition between mutations of different strengths as well as competition between mutations that arise on different fitness backgrounds. Previous work has explored each of these effects in isolation, but the way they combine to influence the dynamics of adaptation remains largely unknown.
I explained to him just like I explained to you that competition slows descent with modification for all lineages because of the limited energy in the environment. Some lineages use energy but they go extinct but that also limits the most fit lineage from achieving the population necessary for an adaptive mutation to occur. Understand rubberband. Whether he acknowledges this first law of thermodynamics fact, you will have to ask him.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2015 by ringo, posted 11-22-2022 10:41 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2100 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 10:58 AM | | Kleinman has replied |
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Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: 10-06-2016
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Message 2027 of 2932 (902392)
11-23-2022 9:27 AM
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Reply to: Message 2017 by ringo
11-22-2022 10:48 AM
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Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Dredge:
Tany is just being a good Darwinist ...
ringo:
Get out of the nineteenth century.
Tany still has to learn the laws of thermodynamics and how to do math. He won't do that chasing bugs.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2017 by ringo, posted 11-22-2022 10:48 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2101 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 10:59 AM | | Kleinman has replied |
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Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: 10-06-2016
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Message 2028 of 2932 (902393)
11-23-2022 9:28 AM
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Reply to: Message 2017 by ringo
11-22-2022 10:48 AM
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Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
I have conversed several times with Lenski about his work and I have explained to him (and you) why competition slows descent with modification.ringo:
But did he acknowledge what you said? Or did he call security?
He can call whomever he wants. If he doesn't want to understand his own experiment, that's his prerogative. He just doesn't understand the thermodynamics of his own experiment.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2017 by ringo, posted 11-22-2022 10:48 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2102 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 11:05 AM | | Kleinman has replied |
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Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: 10-06-2016
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Message 2029 of 2932 (902394)
11-23-2022 9:32 AM
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Reply to: Message 2018 by AZPaul3
11-22-2022 12:04 PM
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Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
Too bad you can't explain how bacteria evolve resistance to an antibiotic and why cancer treatments fail.
AZPaul3:
We can. You can't.
The papers on such things are all over the internet (google scholar). Your inane explanations were shown to be bogus.
You're a fraud, Kleinman.
Yeah, right, that's why Desai wrote:
Phenotypic and molecular evolution across 10,000 generations in laboratory budding yeast populationsAs human health is increasingly threatened by emerging pathogens, multidrug-resistant infections, and therapy-evading cancer cells, our understanding of the dynamics and predictability of evolution is of growing importance. Yet predicting the course of evolution is difficult, since it is driven by a complex combination of deterministic and stochastic forces. On the one hand, beneficial mutations that establish within a population often rise to fixation at rates nearly perfectly predicted by decades-old theory. On the other hand, random forces such as mutation, genetic drift, and recombination ensure an enduring role for chance and contingency. To understand evolution, we must appreciate the interactions between these deterministic and stochastic components.
Yeah, right, you know how to explain the evolution of antibiotic resistance and why cancer treatments fail. I hope you like it dry, real dry.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2018 by AZPaul3, posted 11-22-2022 12:04 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2033 by AZPaul3, posted 11-23-2022 9:49 AM | | Kleinman has replied |
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Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: 10-06-2016
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Re: Response from Dr. Lenski.
Theodoric:
He's a crank, and I have no interest in further exchanges with him, either directly or indirectly.
How sad, and just when I thought you were going to explain the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski experiment. We'll miss your wisdom.
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