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Author
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Topic: Choosing a faith
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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From here I think: Aboitiz Eyes | Notes By EMA: Einstein On God But I see that that is copied all over the place with no real reference. So it looks more like an anonymous meme. People like the sentiments so copy it. Edited by Tangle, .
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1101 by Theodoric, posted 10-24-2022 10:12 AM | | Theodoric has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1106 of 3694 (900185)
10-24-2022 4:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 1105 by GDR
10-24-2022 3:10 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: However, Christian scholarship has advanced significantly over the last 50 years. Really? 2,000 years after the alleged events, some apologists are still trying to find a loophole. You can twist all you like but he still says this in Matthew ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Matthew 24:29–31, 34 Now of course this is all nonsense, none of it ever happened it's all mythology, but it's what is in you bible. It's a plain reading.You really can't avoid that simple reading - all that happens while you here now listening to me saying it are alive. If your book takes 2,000 years of academic study to "interpret" what use is it to Joe public? What were all those people supposed to think for the last 2,000 years? But once again, you're picking a way through it that you prefer. Just like your no longer favoured Mr Lewis's opinion who you just threw under the bus because he didn't help you.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1105 by GDR, posted 10-24-2022 3:10 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1141 by GDR, posted 10-27-2022 2:44 PM | | Tangle has replied | | | Message 1157 by Phat, posted 10-29-2022 2:04 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1146 of 3694 (900487)
10-27-2022 6:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 1141 by GDR
10-27-2022 2:44 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: Not looking for loopholes but Christian scholars now have new data such as in the Dead Sea Scrolls, they are gaining more understanding of 1st century Greek language and there is better communication and access to more information through the internet. The Dead Sea Scrolls were found in the 1940s and 50s, in biblical terms this might be "new" but not in normal scholastic terms. What's new in scholastic terms is that a few non-Christians have started researching and providing alternative interpretations of the same "data". But what we're talking about here is not new. Exactly what information has been revealed about that passage by the Dead Sea Scrolls?
What you quote is Jesus drawing a reference to Isiah Chap 13.
Yes the entirety of the NT is a throwback to the OT attempting to rationalise the failed prophecies therein. Mostly Daniel. But none of your apologetics can escape from what was actually written, which you quote "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." I say it is what it says. And your ex hero CS Lewis does too.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1141 by GDR, posted 10-27-2022 2:44 PM | | GDR has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1151 of 3694 (900502)
10-28-2022 3:24 AM
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Reply to: Message 1148 by Dredge
10-27-2022 11:43 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Dedge writes: and of course we can rely on an atheist like yourself to provide an unbiased and objective assessment of the Scriptures. LOL!! For centuries, the only scholarly analysis of the historicity of the bible was performed by Christians. By definition they are not going to find problems in the bible that interfere with their pre-determined beliefs. It's interesting to see what happens when the same material is studied by agnostics and atheists. Suddenly the unchallengeable is easily challenged and the things that were known to be problematic to the insiders - the contradictions, the forgeries, the historical context and total lack of any independent external corroborating evidence - are seeping out into the open.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1148 by Dredge, posted 10-27-2022 11:43 PM | | Dredge has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1162 of 3694 (900620)
10-29-2022 3:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 1157 by Phat
10-29-2022 2:04 PM
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Re: Untangling a 2000 year old myth
Phat writes: Quite a bit to untangle here
So why don't you have go at untangling it?
I believe that
Bad start, why should I care what you believe?
Of course, we need to be rational, reasonable, and fact-based.
So why aren't you being rational, reasonable, and fact-based? Why are you telling me what you believe like it matters to the discussion what you believe?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1157 by Phat, posted 10-29-2022 2:04 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1163 by Phat, posted 10-29-2022 3:47 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1172 of 3694 (900656)
10-30-2022 1:19 AM
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Reply to: Message 1163 by Phat
10-29-2022 3:47 PM
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Re: Untangling a 2000 year old myth
Phat writes: So what does any of this have to do with a 2000-year-old myth? We defend the idea that our belief can and should stand side-by-side with your secular humanist rationality.
No one is arguing you can't hold whatever daft belief you like.
If I can't trust my own intuition to at least some degree, I won't get far trusting ever changing data and random calculations.(speculations by the secular-minded)
What on earth are you talking about? What are random calculations of the secular minded?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1163 by Phat, posted 10-29-2022 3:47 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1179 by Phat, posted 10-30-2022 1:46 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1196 of 3694 (900698)
10-30-2022 3:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 1179 by Phat
10-30-2022 1:46 PM
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Re: Untangling a 2000 year old myth
Phat writes: The Federal Reserve is a good place to start. It really isn't, we're talking about god, remember?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1179 by Phat, posted 10-30-2022 1:46 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1199 by Phat, posted 10-30-2022 3:27 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1205 of 3694 (900709)
10-30-2022 3:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 1199 by Phat
10-30-2022 3:27 PM
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Re: Untangling a 2000 year old myth
Phat writes: We are talking about faith. Once your money (or half of it at any rate) evaporates, you will suffer a crisis of faith. We're talking about religious faith. If you're going to lose your faith if you lose some of your money, you do not have a faith. But then we've already established that you're not interested in following the teachings of your professed faith. Who do you think you're fooling Phat? It's not us and it's not your god? Could it be yourself?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1199 by Phat, posted 10-30-2022 3:27 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1208 by Phat, posted 10-31-2022 11:41 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1223 of 3694 (900792)
10-31-2022 4:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 1216 by GDR
10-31-2022 2:25 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: It's not so much the material, although in some cases it is helpful, but the increased understanding of the early Greek and Hebrew languages. We were talking specifically about the passage in Matthew about the second coming.You said that the Dead Sea scrolls gave us a new understanding. I asked "Exactly what information has been revealed about that passage by the Dead Sea Scrolls?" Your answer is none. So please don't throw that chaff anymore.
You completely ignored the verses prior to that clearly show that this is about a revolutionary war with the Romans.
I didn't ignore it, I discarded t as irrelevant. The historical facts are that there were numerous cults around at the time preaching the end times as the 1st century was supposed to fulfil earlier apocalyptic prophecies. According to Josephus there were at least half a dozen messianic cults around preaching it and your Dead Sea scrolls mentions more. It was expected in their life time. You can't honestly negotiate your way out of these facts and the actually words said.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1216 by GDR, posted 10-31-2022 2:25 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1225 by GDR, posted 10-31-2022 8:15 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1224 of 3694 (900794)
10-31-2022 4:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 1218 by GDR
10-31-2022 2:45 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: So are you saying that the Gospel accounts aren't evidence? Can you then explain why they are not. Because they have no historicity; they fail all evidential tests. We've done this. We don't know who wrote them. They are full of contradictions, They bear all the hallmarks of myth including antecedents. They have no external confirming evidence. There are multiple frauds, redactions, interpolations and political interference in their construction. They were written at least 40 years after the supposed death of the main character by people who never met him let alone witnessed the events. Major elements that are core to the Christian belief are known to have never happened - eg the sermon on the mount. The list is almost endless. If you can find real historicity in there somewhere, please show us.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1218 by GDR, posted 10-31-2022 2:45 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1256 by GDR, posted 11-02-2022 5:25 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1229 of 3694 (900833)
11-01-2022 2:50 AM
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Reply to: Message 1225 by GDR
10-31-2022 8:15 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: I wasn't referring to any specific passage but to your comment that there had been 2000 years to figure this stuff out. We were talking about the passage in Matthew that tells those listening that the Messiah will return in their lifetime. As the many messianic Jewish cults did at the time. You said that we know more now because of the Dead Sea Scrolls and gave me a pile of apologetics to explain it away. I asked what they have to say about the passage we were talking about and the answer was?
You are going to believe what you are going to believe but in the context of the whole passage it is clearly about what is going to happen when the revolution comes.
I don't believe a word of any of it! It's quite plainly pure myth from end to end. But I am capable of reading what it actually says.
Certainly there were other messianic movements during that period however I have never come across any evidence about end times predictions by them or Josephus. Can you give me an example. I don't have an online source but you'll find it in 'Pseudo-Philo's Biblical Antiquities, the 'Fourth Philosophy' and the Political Messianism of the First Century CE. D Mendels. p261-75. Amongst others. Fill your boots. (That and two other references are from 'On the historicity of Jesus' by Dr Richard Carrier which you should read if you haven't already. One of the very few peer reviewed non-Christian biblical authors. Josephus has four messiahs some called Jesus (Joshua). Plus yours, makes at least five. In fact there were probably dozens.
I do agree that many of the early Christians believed that it would happen soon, In the first century CE. Hence Jesus saying it (allegedly).
and you can still read about people claiming that for today.
Not some, the majority of American Christians as I've pointed out. Surely you can see the psychological need here?
INHO it, like the first coming, which wasn't at all what people expected and I doubt the 2nd one will be either. My personal opinion for what it is worth, (which is very little I agree), is that it happens individually as we shuffle off this mortal coil. But you're just making stuff up that you feel comfortable with aren't you? That belief has no biblical basis at all - it's not even apologetics. But that's fine by me, believe whatever you like, our only grievance here is your attempt to evidence your beliefs. Edited by Tangle, .
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1225 by GDR, posted 10-31-2022 8:15 PM | | GDR has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1231 of 3694 (900835)
11-01-2022 4:31 AM
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Reply to: Message 1230 by Dredge
11-01-2022 3:39 AM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Dredge writes: which suggests it could be a long time before the Messiah returns. Or they felt that the "good news" was so obviously good that it would be very quickly spread. (Not that they knew anything about how big the world was.) Do you imagine Matthew (whoever he was) might have meant that it will take at least a couple of thousand years? If not then you have an unresolvable contradiction, because this is as clear as day: "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." Didn't happen then and it hasn't happened yet, 2,000 years later. Sorry, you lost.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1230 by Dredge, posted 11-01-2022 3:39 AM | | Dredge has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1233 by Phat, posted 11-01-2022 11:08 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1240 of 3694 (900903)
11-01-2022 5:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 1233 by Phat
11-01-2022 11:08 AM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Phat writes: Matthew had no idea how long it would take nor do I imagine he cared. Like you, he did care and he did know, that's why he wrote that it was imminent.
Every knee will bow eventually. Be it willing or unwilling, EVERY knee will bow. ffs, grow up.
The problem with skeptics is that many of you knowingly or unconsciously look for contradictions. I can't speak for all skeptics but I don't look for contradictions I read books by historians that have found them in their hundreds. It's their day job. You can do it yourself by reading 'horizontally'. Read the first few verses in Mark, then Matthew then Luke, then John and count the differences and especially the contradictions.
All that we are trying to get through to you is that the message is true and real. To do that you need to show us that the bible is true and real. But you can't do that. But we can show you where it is wrong, contradictory and doubtful. Which, as you say, you'll ignore.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1233 by Phat, posted 11-01-2022 11:08 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1257 of 3694 (900951)
11-02-2022 5:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 1256 by GDR
11-02-2022 5:25 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
I dunno GDR, this stuff just makes me feel tired and frustrated. Maybe I'll attempt a futile answer to what you say here but more likely I won't - because, well, it's futile. The point I'm trying to make is that there is no real historicity for Jesus, let alone the miraculous stuff he's supposed to have done and how he saved the world an' all. Sure, there's acres of shelf space for Christian scholars and apologists but there's virtually no peer reviewed history. There should be so much that it's beyond all doubt, but there's virtually none. Jesus, if real, would be the most important guy that ever lived. But there's no factual evidence of him actually even existing! It's bizarre. We shouldn't even be able to have this discussion, it should be obvious to everyone. But it's not, simply because he left no historical footprint, just an enormous mythology. There's virtual universal acceptance that Paul existed (even though a lot of his stuff is forged) but not Jesus. Why? How? It would have been so easy for there to be real evidence but it doesn't exist. And yet it was supposed to be so important.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1256 by GDR, posted 11-02-2022 5:25 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1262 by Phat, posted 11-03-2022 7:36 AM | | Tangle has replied | | | Message 1300 by GDR, posted 11-05-2022 2:34 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1259 of 3694 (900959)
11-03-2022 2:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 1256 by GDR
11-02-2022 5:25 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: And of course you know the "Sermon on the Mount" never happened do you? Like you, I don't have any first hand knowledge of the bible, other than having read it. I get my information from historians. It's mainstream scholarship that the Sermon on the Mount wasn't said by Jesus, it's a complex literary creation based on previous texts. This is a summary - "The Sermon on the Mount relies on the Septuagint Greek version of Deuteronomy and Leviticus, so it doesn’t go back to a Hebrew or Aramaic source. Matthew also redacts other Greek scriptures like “turn the other cheek” taken from Isaiah 50:6-9. The sermon has a literary structure so it didn’t originate in oral tradition, and it deals with issues that would have come up after Jesus died, so it didn’t originate with him. The sermon also assumes the temple doesn’t exist, so it had to have been written after the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. It also addresses the rabbinical argument that followed the destruction of the temple." ie Matthew made it up. The analysis of written rather than oral structure comes from this peer reviewed paper. I wish you luck with it. https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/jbl/1987_allison.pdf
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1256 by GDR, posted 11-02-2022 5:25 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1260 by Phat, posted 11-03-2022 6:04 AM | | Tangle has replied | | | Message 1301 by GDR, posted 11-05-2022 3:10 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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