Choosing a faith

And if you'd been born to atheists, attended a secular school and never seen the inside of a church or heard a Christian hymn you'd be far more likely to also be an atheist. People are taught how to believe and what to believe - beliefs do not fall out of the sky (except in cargo cults).The human species has already coalesced around the golden rule, it's an evolved human trait, like walking upright, it's got sod all to do with religions. Atheists have the golden rule. Some religions have hijacked it for their own purposes but it's simply a human characteristic that's stronger in some individuals than others. It doesn't require ancient myths and miracles to explain it.

Possibly you do. So what? These are exceptions. No one without prior knowledge finds Jesus. It's impossible, requiring a miracle that never happens. You cling to exceptions, your exceptions compound to the impossible. It's the only one that fits with all known science. So far you have not made this case. Science is against you again. But somehow you know better.​

oh, Phat....your hopeless

Oh please, you know that's utter nonsense, we can teach children anything and it will stick."Give me a child until the age of seven and I will give you the man"
Jesuit motto, alleged to be attributed to Francis Xavier, the co-founder of the Jesuit Order“As I speak, terrorists are methodically and intentionally targeting young people and children in [Morocco]. They are radicalizing, indoctrinating, and grooming young, vulnerable people to carry out acts of terrorism,” said Jonathan Evans, the director general of the British MI5, the security service, in November.
He warned that teenagers as young as 15 and 16 have been implicated in “terrorist-related” activities as a result of a deliberate strategy pursued by radical Islamist groups. ffs! You say that like it can be just dismissed. The actual evidence is that some do but most do not, it's incredibly hard to escape your early years. You are an example. Thank you.​

No shit Sherlock! We've evolved consciousness and reasoning, we can think and plan the future, we can decide ethical behaviour, make laws and enforce them, build societies and technologies. Of course there's something more going on. Spooks in the sky watching us and taking an interest in our actions, then judging us on it. Really?

Really? Can you show me evidence of people who have never heard of Jesus suddenly believing in him? Everything can be investigated. Show me something that can't be. I saw the smilie, but it's so ingenuous. It was a serious point, disagreeing with science without a rational reason is, you know, irrational.
​ Razor out god; you have the same result. God is therefore not required. Insert god, you have an unnecessary belief. Again, irrational.​
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If you stopped trying to claim that your beliefs had some corroboration in scientific observations and real world evidence and just said what you're saying now - that it's simply a belief - then most of our complaints go away.We'd then have a different discussion about why your beliefs are contradictory or fly in the face of what is actually known, but we wouldn't have to keep asking you to evidence your assertions.

I REALLY wish you wouldn't use that kind of sickening religious language, it turns my stomach. If you could just stick to talking about people sticking to the golden rule and even "do as you would be done by" you'd have support from all quarters.You talk about "choosing a faith" and say it doesn't matter what god you choose so long as it's a "nice" one - it really doesn't matter whether you choose any god at all, what matters is what values you live your life by. Just cut out this god bollox, it's embarrassing, wasteful and irrelevant.

I'm telling you how I see it, you tell me how you see it.I really do feel embarrassed and rather disgusted when I see people debasing themselves in "worship". Just to be clear, this is not just a Christian thing, when I see the revolting stuff other religions get up to I feel even worse. Your particular brand is the least worst - but have you watched the evangelicals in action? Muslims?This is predominantly an atheist/agnostic (whatever that means) at best, deist forum, you know that. You came here again to have another go, it really shouldn't be a surprise to find that your beliefs still don't find much tractions here.I am literally sickened by the idea of sacrificial love because it's so fake. You do not sacrifice yourself for the love of your neighbour do you? Have you given everything up to save humanity? You have not, like everyone, you compromise and do what you feel you can - then go down to the church and pat each other on the back. Praise the Lord! I'm sure you do more than most, but you do not love sacrificially.

First you have to make it.At the moment what we see is at best 'no case to answer' and at worst that the prosecution offered no evidence, so it's case dismissed.There's absolutely no point coming here and saying "I believe". No one give a hoot what you believe. We know that you believe what you've been taught and what you feel comfortable with. That's interesting to you but not to us.We think your beliefs - but not your values - are daft and you haven't yet given us a reason to change our mind.

This is one reason we get so impatient with you. You need to believe something so you're convinced it really happened. That's the exact opposite of the rational thinking process and you don't know you're doing it. If you're claiming something is historical you have to show how it is, not just tell us that you believe it. You know that there are people here that think that there is no evidence that the bloke Jesus even existed let alone did the impossible. That's a bit more interesting. Would it be this 'spiritual but non-religious' thing that's growing faster than any other form of belief?

According to his own words he IS a failed messiah, the second coming didn't happen when he claimed it would and we've waited 2,000 years since. From a human psychology point of view it's interesting to note that believers generally put the end times within their own lifetimes. Phat and Faith both beg for it. According to Pew Research 58% of evangelical Christians (and 41% of all Americans) say it'll be before 2050. It's another one of those self-deceptions believers have.But getting back to the resurrection, I agree that it adds something to the story so that with it it's got a better chance of recruiting the superstitious and gullible of the age. Which is why it was added to the story of course. If your whole belief hangs on that one obvious fiction, it's rather shaky.

Of course it was! What else could this mean?“ Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”Nothing to do with revolution and Romans. Even your hero CS Lewis tells you so.

CS Lewis “World's Last Night”:

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“Say what you like,” we shall be told, “the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.”

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It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” The one exhibition of error and the one confession of ignorance grow side by side. That they stood thus in the mouth of Jesus himself, and were not merely placed thus by the reporter, we surely need not doubt.

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“some”?! It's most Christians and 41% of American today! And throughout history it would have been greater. Don't try to hand-wave it away, it speaks to a psychological need in religious people to invent an imminent apocalypse and saviour. This is why these stories are concocted.There is no historical evidence for Jesus, let alone an impossible resurrection. You've hung your hat on an imaginary peg.

Baruch de Spinoza was a Dutch philosopher considered one of the three great rationalists of 17th-century philosophy, along with René Descartes in France, and Gottfried Leibniz in Germany. God would have said: Stop praying and punching yourself in the chest!What I want you to do is go out into the world and enjoy your life. I want you to enjoy, sing, have fun and enjoy everything I've made for you.Stop going to those dark, cold temples that you built yourself and say they are my house! My house is in the mountains, in the woods, rivers, lakes, beaches. That's where I live and there I express my love for you.Stop blaming me for your miserable life; I never told you there was anything wrong with you or that you were a sinner, or that your sexuality was a bad thing! Sex is a gift I have given you and with which you can express your love, your ecstasy, your joy. So don't blame me for everything they made you believe.Stop reading alleged sacred scriptures that have nothing to do with me. If you can't read me in a sunrise, in a landscape, in the look of your friends, in your son's eyes... you will find me in no book! Trust me and stop asking me. Would you tell me how to do my job?Stop being so scared of me. I do not judge you or criticize you, nor get angry, or seek to punish you. I am pure love.Stop asking for forgiveness, there's nothing to forgive. If I made you... I filled you with passions, limitations, pleasures, feelings, needs, inconsistencies... free will. How can I blame you if you respond to something I put in you? How can I punish you for being the way you are, if I'm the one who made you? Do you think I could create a place to burn all my children who behave badly for the rest of eternity? What kind of God would do that?Forget any kind of commandments, any kind of laws; those are wiles to manipulate you, to control you, that only create guilt in you.Respect your peers and don't do what you don't want for yourself. All I ask is that you pay attention in your life, that your consciousness is your guide.My beloved, this life is not a test, not a step, not a rehearsal, nor a prelude to paradise. This life is the only thing that exists here and now, and it is all you need.I have set you absolutely free, no prizes or punishments, no sins or virtues... no one carries a marker, no one keeps a record.
You are absolutely free to create in your life heaven or hell.I could tell you if there's anything after this life, but I won't... but I can give you a tip. Live as if there is nothing after... as if this is your only chance to enjoy, to love, to exist.So, if there's nothing, then you will have enjoyed the opportunity I gave you. And if there is, rest assured that I won't ask if you behaved right or wrong, I'll ask. Did you like it? Did you have fun? What did you enjoy the most? What did you learn?...Stop believing in me; believing is assuming, guessing, imagining. I don't want you to believe in me... I want you to feel me in you when you kiss your beloved, when you tuck in your little girl, when you caress your dog, when you bathe in the sea.Stop praising me, what kind of egomaniac God do you think I am?
I'm bored being praised, I'm tired of being thanked. Feeling grateful? Prove it by taking care of yourself, your health, your relationships, the world. Express your joy!... that's the way to praise me.Stop complicating things and repeating as a parakeet what you've been taught about me.The only thing for sure is that you are here, that you are alive, and that this world is full of wonders.What do you need more miracles for? Why so many explanations?
Look for me outside... you won't find me. Find me inside... there I am beating within you.Spinoza.

Just go fishing Phat, just go fishing...