I worship a God that is represented by a man who was tortured, humiliated and killed on a Roman cross.
Just as a by-the-by, why do you think it necessary to worship anything?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
Most of religious belief is just thoughtlessly doing what you're told to do or have always done. Start it early enough and the mugs won't even think about it.
I suppose that a rather obvious response will be that "since gods don't exist, that eliminates them. Worshipping a car or a sports team is also excessive adoration. And some wise guy is gonna point to the fact that the researcher was also a Minister on the side.
The obvious response is that people do not worship in order to "reduce their risk of mortality" they do it as part of their religious tradition. If it improves health, that's a bi-product, not the reason for doing it. Why would a god need to be worshipped?
The paper itself is quite well done and the results are interesting if not unexpected. Churchgoing is a social activity which for believers will bring all sorts of health benefits. But so are many other regular, non-religious social activities. Had they compared their church going group with a a group of regular golf players I would expect a similar finding.
And churchgoing is only a benefit to believers. Put me in a church and it would have very negative effects on my health - and anyone around me.
However, there's one big question in it for me - frequency of church attendance made no difference to the results.
"Although these analyses support the literature linking religiosity and mortality, we found no evidence that the actual frequency of church attendance offered similar protection as no differences in AL or mortality were found between those attending church at least weekly and those attending church at least monthly."
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
1st rule of EVC, anything interesting is allowed. Percy thinks it's something else but he's outvoted.
Both Francis Collins and Richard Dawkins are decent, intelligent, honest people. Both are very fine scientists with a common language so of course they can have a respectful conversation.
Dawkins only gets angry with the fundamentalist, religious nutters that pollute knowledge with downright lies and disinformation. He can't help it, anger is a very primitive emotion with a survival advantage. :-)
You're not one of those nutters but you haven't learnt how to think dispassionately; you're consistently cherry-picking weak information that suits you and disregarding stronger information that doesn't.
You have a strong faith which is best kept it as faith, science and religion are non-overlapping magisteriums.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
Good question, off topic, but I'll try and answer. First off though, the question is too general. What do you mean as necessary? Necessary for what? Also what do you understand as worship. I'd like to get an answer to those questions before going further.
I missed this until I saw Percy had replied. As Percy says, the word "necessary" is not necessary. In fact it can be reduced to just two words.
"Why worship?"
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
I don't fully agree with the picture painted in this post. Let me just say a few things.
I'm not picking on Ireland, I could go to almost any city in Europe and see the same thing. My point is more general - the wealth of the church was obscene and came from the laity, many of which lived in poverty.
In my tiny English village there are two large ancient churches and one modern one plus a nunnery. Every little village in England has at least one church, usually more. I wonder what could have been done with all that wealth instead?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
I'm just saying the actual events surrounding what you saw are not what you might think. Most of the people who funded those churches were wealthy and those in poverty around them in fact had little access to religion at the time.
I think you might be forgetting the establishment of the parish and tithes. In any case I found this QI.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
In Gaelic Ireland parochial tithes were typically paid by the Nemed (roughly speaking "Nobility", although it doesn't correspond to Feudal Nobility) by supplying their sons to the church and granting lands. I wasn't forgetting it, I just don't know how it relates to what I said. Can you explain?
Tithes relate to what I was saying. The church demanded one tenth of people's annual income regardless of whether they attended church. It was a compulsory religious tax. It was incredibly unpopular but made the church incredibly wealthy.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
The only time Irish people were drained of their money by tithes was when British law forced them to pay it to support the Anglican church in Ireland (i.e. not their own religion) and was viewed as another aspect of colonialism.
If you say so, but nevertheless the people paid one tenth of their annual income to the church and it made them poorer and the church wealthier.
I would have seen that as supporting what I was saying, that this was more to do with British Imperialism. What aspect am I forgetting?
That the church took the payments that they extorted one way or another from the people.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
Ok Son, I get it, you're not forgetting, but I'm not following your rabbit, sorry. Tithes are not Irish or British, they're biblical.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
Just as a point of information, lest we forget and get diverted into Irish national causes and tea plantations. Tithing is an ancient religious construct not restricted to Ireland or Britain. It helped build the churches and cathedrals of Europe. Encyclopaedia Brittanica
quote:tithe, (from Old English teogothian, “tenth”), a custom dating back to Old Testament times and adopted by the Christian church whereby lay people contributed a 10th of their income for religious purposes, often under ecclesiastical or legal obligation. The money (or its equivalent in crops, farm stock, etc.) was used to support the clergy, maintain churches, and assist the poor. Tithing was also a prime source of subsidy for the construction of many magnificent cathedrals in Europe.
Despite serious resistance, tithing became obligatory as Christianity spread across Europe. It was enjoined by ecclesiastical law from the 6th century and enforced in Europe by secular law from the 8th century. In England in the 10th century, payment was made obligatory under ecclesiastical penalties by Edmund I and under temporal penalties by Edgar. In the 11th century Pope Gregory VII, in an effort to control abuses, outlawed lay ownership of tithes.
During the 16th-century Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther approved in general of paying tithes to the temporal sovereign, and the imposition of tithes continued for the benefit of Protestant as well as Roman Catholic churches. Gradually, however, opposition grew. Tithes were repealed in France during the Revolution (1789), without compensation to tithe holders. Other countries abolished certain kinds of tithes and indemnified the holders. By 1887 the tithe had been brought to an end in Italy. It was abolished in Ireland at the disestablishment of the Anglican church in 1871, and it gradually died out in the Church of Scotland. In England in 1836, the tithe was commuted for a rent charge depending on the price of grain, and in 1936 the tithe rent charges were abolished. New methods of taxation were developed in those countries that provided financial support of the church out of government funds. Remnants of the tithing system do exist, however, in certain Protestant European countries. In Germany, for example, citizens must pay a church tax unless they formally renounce membership in a church.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
Well duh it's not restricted to Ireland and Britain! Taxation is also not restricted to Ireland and Britain, but the heavy food and money taxes that were imposed on us were a British colonial imposition. What the hell does it matter that the concept occurred elsewhere Slavery was an ancient economic construct not restricted to America. Nothing interesting to say about slavery in the USA then, it's not purely American "lest we forget".
It matters because everything else you're introducing from British colonialism, to tea plantations, taxes and slavery has nothing to do with the discussion. The point I was trying to make in that original post was that the church in Ireland as elsewhere in Europe exploited the population by making them work on church land and property and taking 10% of their income or produce. All this predates British colonialism by hundreds of years.
I was simply disgusted by the wealth of the religions in the middle of a poor part of the city that was much poorer before the slums were cleared. As a reminder, this is my post. It's not a pop at Ireland, it's my revulsion of a religious hypocrisy and exploitation.
Tangle writes:
I'm on holiday at the moment, having a day in Cork, Ireland. Instead of the usual tourist things, I took a walk around the older parts of the city that haven't been redeveloped for 200 years. Ireland has always been a poor country and it can be seen in these parts even though most of the worst slum areas were cleared in the 1800s the houses that replaced them still look poor so god knows what it was like before. Most of the emigration to the US left Ireland from Cobh harbour here. The conditions people lived in then must have been horrendous but in the middle of all the squalor was the church in all its power. There's an enormous infrastructure of religious power; the massive St Fin Barre's Cathedral, St Stephen's Church, St Nicholas Church, Holy Trinity Church the Scottish Presbyterian Church(!), the Red Abbey, Capuchins Friary, numerous smaller (but still large) churches with their support buildings - the Episcopal residences of the Bishop of Ireland, the Deanery, the Organist's houses, and a stack more in a very small area. It's a terrible statement - immense wealth and power surrounded by poverty and starvation. Yet it was the poor that paid for and built these insane monuments to stupidity. Religious institutions preach godliness and claim the moral high ground but behaved like wealthy overlords. It made me feel sick and angry. Religion is not a meme, it's an industry and a con and we're still falling for it.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
Ok, it has been narrowed down to worship. Firstly I would say that to me worship is about following God by following His command to love my neighbour and everything that flows from that, including a love for all life and for the life of the planet. I believe that is what worship is ultimately about, and that form of worship is a calling on all humans Christian or not. Further than that though, I see God as being responsible for the fact that I exist, and I think that worship helps establish in me a sense of humble gratitude. I agree that God doesn't require worship for His benefit, but for mine, and for what I might be able to accomplish for others. (He has minimal luck with me mind you.) Also worship is largely, but certainly not exclusively, a communal things. It is clear that we can all accomplish things as a community that we can't as individuals in many cases.
Sorry, I missed this reply.
I have to say, when I see people doing it I feel a mixture of embarrassment and disgust. All that grovelling! I can sort of understand everyone having a good sing-along but communal chanting of religious drivel turns my stomach.
It's all very silly and looks very cultish to me.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
Oh good grief GDR! Can't you see what you're doing? This is totally absurd apologetics and word torture worthy of Putin. You're twisting very obvious meanings into something else just so that you can be comfortable with it. You really can't escape the obvious meaning without corrupting it.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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