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Author | Topic: Choosing a faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: We are still discussing Peter Kreeft. He has not lied anywhere that I can see.
I have asked you many, many, many times to show us ONE apologist who is not a liar. Get to it.Bio Dr.Kreeft, now 85, is well loved and well respected by many people. You are so far the only guy I know who refers to him as "some goober". It's ok, though....that's how you are."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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GDR writes: I would agree that there is nothing new but our understandings continually evolve, which I is a positive thing even though in many cases IMHO, it evolved negatively. The book hasn’t changed, nor has its meaning. It’s God’s word, how could it? What’s changed is US. Or at least some of us. You try to put the words into your context as a 21st century, liberal Westerner. To do that you really mustn’t read further than the sermon on the mount otherwise you’re in a lot of trouble.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Stile writes: I still don't even get the point of believing God "kicked off the process" of evolution or not.Who cares? The process exists - it appears to be fully natural. It doesn't seem to have any reason to suggest that any part of it is required to be supernatural. So why care if God kicked it off or not? Well, if God exists then we might want to ask the question of why he bothered to bring us into existence. It seems reasonable and even logical that there would be a purpose to it, and if that is the case you would think we might be interested in that purpose, and what it should mean to our life.
Stile writes: I don't see it a case being strong enough at all, unless it's a pride thing. I'm concerned with truth, knowing that it is belief and faith. Are humans not strong enough to consider a God that exists that doesn't care about humans?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Taq writes: Also the actually message has to be evaluated. The real argument is over the claims of what Jesus did, not if he existed. The same for Joseph Smith.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes:
I am trying to use what time I have to work my way through all of these posts. Some things that are written I just accept and try and prioritize what to reply to.
I responded to this claim once already and you didn't respond. Now you're just repeating this claim yet again as if no one had ever responded to it. This is what you do, over and over. It's why people get frustrated at you and why you leave because you don't like the treatment that you yourself are instigating. Percy writes: So what, it could have also proven that it didn't exist. Up to then it was belief, although I agree there was evidence for it, but not conclusive.
The theoretical side of science does go beyond the empirical. For example, it was theorized that the Higgs Boson existed before empirical evidence for its existence was found. Once this evidence was produced it meant that the Higgs Boson was no longer theoretical but empirical. Percy writes: Religions are of a totally different nature than is science. I do think that the order of science does suggest a designer but that of course is simply my belief, that I know you don't agree with.
That religion is subjective is why there are so many religions in the world. That science is empirical is why there's only one Boyle's Law, one Theory of Relativity, one germ theory of disease. Percy writes: I recently answered a post by Stile where he talked about rolling a dice. This is not the point he was making, but if I roll a dice and it comes up 3, how would I know whether or not God interfered and caused it to come up as a 3. Now, I'm not saying that I think God works that way, but I can't know one way or the another. I'm in the car and suddenly I decide to go a different route to the store. Did God influence that decision or not. I, or you, have no way of knowing. There is no evidence. I decide to donate to the food bank. Maybe God influenced that decision and maybe not. We can't know as again, there is no evidence. It is belief. Does an external intelligence exist or not. It is belief as there is no scientific evidence that will give you an absolute answer. Ockham's razor. Why are you postulating the existence of something for which there is no evidence? You need to demonstrate what you're postulating experimentally. For example, mix hydrogen and oxygen and provide a spark. Do this once in the presence of an "external intelligence" and again in the absence of an "external intelligence." Observe whether there are any differences in what happens. Any differences would be evidence that the presence of an "external intelligence" can have an influence on natural processes.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes: I don't have the credibility or the credentials that these guys have. I don't have their ability to express ideas. This has been their life's work. While they were at university and learning and teaching others I was raising kids and gaining the skills to make a living and then applying them.
You seem to think your inability to make the case yourself is due to a weakness of expression on your part, but that's not true. It's that there's no case to be made. It doesn't matter whether it's you or <fill in the blank, e.g., Chris Barrigar, C. S. Lewis, etc.>, nothing can change that. Percy writes: I do believe that our lives in the present will have impact on the life to come. And yet if you ignore the material world it will quickly convince you how real it is, even killing you if you insist on taking it to that point. But we can ignore all aspects of everyone's non-material or spiritual beliefs and suffer no consequences whatsoever.Edited by Admin, : Fix quote that left out portion with special characters. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes: What is the unimpeachable evidence. You have people writing about him. But they did they make it up. You are entirely dependent on what others have, written. You never met him. It is just far more recent and after the printing press was invented. What is the scientific evidence that he existed, assuming there is no grave site?
I see Taq has responded, but I haven't read it yet. My response is to quote John McEnroe: "You cannot be serious." Like Jesus, Joseph Smith is believed by his followers to be a great prophet and worker of miracles, but unlike Jesus there is unimpeachable evidence that he was a real person who actually existed. Percy writes: We all come to our own conclusions. I have my Christian beliefs which is not necessarily the same as other Christians, most here have their atheistic beliefs and you have a vaguely defined spiritual belief that is so weakly defined that there is nothing to really argue against or defend. The usual response to this is that Joseph Smith (or any founder of any other religion) was nothing like Jesus, as if he were the template, as if true religions can only be founded by people born of virgins who had a final dinner with their apostles before being arrested and crucified.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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nwr writes:
Thanks. When I first read your post I agreed that it sounded interesting. I went straight to Amazon and ordered it and it si supposed to arrive Sep. 28. They didn't have it available in Canada so they have to get it up from the states first May I recommend a book.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes: Yes the scientific findings as you describe them are not subjective conclusions. However, belief or rejection of string theory is a subjective conclusion as the scientific evidence is not conclusive. You eventually arrived at "subjective conclusions" after beginning with "We both have evidence" and "philosophical evidence" and trying to draw a false equivalence. Can we finally at last get a concession from you that scientific conclusions, (theories) that are arrived at through research and study, experiments, observations, replication, peer review and consensus are not in any way "subjective conclusions"? That they, to the best of human ability, correspond to actual material reality while your religious beliefs do not even come close? That to talk of both having evidence is absurd? Science and religion are two different forms of knowledge all together. Science answers hard facts. However, science still has to come up with answers, using what science is known to form a subjective opinion. Science has unearthed numerous natural processes. However as that is all that science has discovered, it is a subjective conclusion that there is nothing more. That's fine, but it is my subjective conclusion that there is more about our existence than natural processes, and one of the things that causes me to believe that is simply that natural processes exist, and we can learn about them.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Taq writes: I am sorry Taq but I just don't understand the point you are making here.
I was criticizing your belief that parsimony is a subjective conclusion. It isn't. It is an axiom of almost every practical and pragmatic epistemology that exists. Addressing the beliefs in the quote above, it would look like you arbitrarily apply parsimony based on your own subjective criteria. Taq writes: There is no required correlation between what people think and what is actually true. Of course.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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AZPaul3 writes: No, I have had a wonderful life, and if that is all there is then so be it. I have come to my own conclusion that this isn't all there is. It is what I believe to be true. I kinda resent you telling me what my motivations are. Why do you feel this? It is rejection of the squeamish concept of ... the void, isn't it? AZPaul3 writes: Without the physical body to encase it where does that living spirit that is you go on death? It is my belief that it will be re-embodied. That is all faith, based on the NT writings, and the resurrection of Jesus, which is not the point of this thread and off topic.
Paul3 writes: Where does that energy go? To the same place that the energy that is in the fig tree outside my window goes. AZPaul3 writes: That is energy, actual physical photons, and it will obey the commands of the universe. The commands of the universe. Doesn't a command require an intelligence?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9199 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Richard Bauckham's book Jesus and the Eyewitnesses details, after considerable research, how all the NT was written either by eye witnesses or by writers with a first person connected to the eye witnesses.
His claims go against all scholarly consensus. Just because one dude writes a book does not make it true.
Papias who lived from 60 to 130 AD insisted on writing only from eyewitness or from those with direct contact to the eye witnesses.
Bullshit you have no evidence of this. All there is is tradition and later writings Polycarp born 69 AD wrote extensively and had contact with the disciples. What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Theodoric writes: ALL? Are you claiming that there is a consensus that the Bible was made up and that Jesus never existed? Or at best was just another face in the crowd? I feel that you are being lied to. Either that or you actually want to entertain the bias. Granted I have no real set of data nor evidence that would meet your satisfaction. Somehow, I strongly feel that many people are being deceived these days. You laugh at the idea of Gold being money, yet I have read (from several sources) that India and China are buying up a lot of gold and silver at bargain basement prices. I became convinced that the US Dollar is on a long and gradual decline. His claims go against all scholarly consensus. Perhaps you think I need mental help, I don't really know. So what does Gold have to do with Christian apologetics? When a nation is suffering, the real character of the people comes out. Believe it or not, I don't want the world to end. I don't want wars and rumors of wars. I am even getting tired of religion! But I do want Jesus. I want a Deity that is wiser than humanity. Because I doubt we will make it."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9199 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
That isn't what I said, is it? Another strawman.
It is against the scholarly consensus that the synoptic gospels were based on eyewitness testimony and that the Gospel of John was written by an eyewitness. Please keep your wackaloon economic theories to the appropriate threads. Everything else you spout is also off-topic and just word saladWhat can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8563 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Doesn't a command require an intelligence? Well personification being what it is then no, not necessarily. But you knew that.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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