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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7570
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 541 of 815 (897944)
09-16-2022 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by ringo
09-16-2022 11:55 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Guarantee Phat will miss your point.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by ringo, posted 09-16-2022 11:55 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 542 by ringo, posted 09-16-2022 12:45 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20022
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 542 of 815 (897945)
09-16-2022 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 541 by Theodoric
09-16-2022 12:28 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Theodoric writes:
Guarantee Phat will miss your point.
If I was a contrarian, I would disagree.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by Theodoric, posted 09-16-2022 12:28 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7046
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(2)
Message 543 of 815 (897947)
09-16-2022 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 515 by GDR
09-15-2022 5:30 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
We can't know as again, there is no evidence. It is belief. Does an external intelligence exist or not. It is belief as there is no scientific evidence that will give you an absolute answer.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 515 by GDR, posted 09-15-2022 5:30 PM GDR has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5287
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


(2)
Message 544 of 815 (897948)
09-16-2022 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 521 by GDR
09-15-2022 6:39 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
The commands of the universe. Doesn't a command require an intelligence?
Really? You're going to pull that stupid trick?
Human language is filled with colloquial expressions based on anthropomorphizing and personification. None of those typical expressions imply anything concrete.
When I speak of the sun or the moon rising or setting, does that require geocentrism? Or imply that I am admitting to the "truth" of geocentrism? No, of course not! Those expressions are just based on our perspective being stuck within a frame of reference that we perceive as being motionless despite it actually being in motion -- similarly the phone poles you see whizzing past you in the car are not themselves moving past you but only appear to be doing so as you yourself are moving past them. Watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJMYoj4hHqU for an interesting 1960 lecture on frames of reference; lots of visual examples.
When I speak of Apple software having it in for me, does that mean that Apple software is a sentient entity with a personal grudge against me? No, of course not! Rather, it is the expression of my own frustration from many attempts to deal with arbitrary software that defies logic.
When we speak of natural laws, does that require a sentient Nature serving as a Law-Giver consciously creating these laws? No, of course not! Rather, what we present as "laws" have been created by humans (we are the Law-Givers here) to describe how we have observed certain things to work.
The same applies to AZPaul's reference to "the commands of the universe", by which he was saying something like: "Everything in the universe works in certain ways, so we would naturally expect everything (eg, "energy, actual physical photons") to behave in accordance with those certain ways that we have observed the universe to behave." (and here the use of "behave" is yet another example of the pervasive personification in colloquial English that I can only hope that you will not also try to misconstrue).
I have been trying to discuss "creation science" with creationists since the mid-1980's, so I have seen a lot of their deceptive tricks. That includes twisting words to mean or imply things that were never intended, such you yourself just tried to do.
As such, I am thoroughly fed up with that kind of nonsense and have no patience with those games. Please do not play those nonsensical games.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 521 by GDR, posted 09-15-2022 6:39 PM GDR has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21180
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 545 of 815 (897958)
09-16-2022 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 521 by GDR
09-15-2022 6:39 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
AZPaul3 writes:
That is energy, actual physical photons, and it will obey the commands of the universe.

The commands of the universe. Doesn't a command require an intelligence?
I know AZPaul3 already responded, but seriously?
But given other things you've said, I expect that your position is that photons following the laws of the universe is evidence of non-natural photons, or at least of non-natural somethings. I don't think anyone here follows your logic and finds it opaque.
I think the reason no one can follow your logic is that you're using a circular argument while leaving out one crucial part that would close the circle: you assume the existence of God.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 521 by GDR, posted 09-15-2022 6:39 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 569 by GDR, posted 09-19-2022 4:45 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5646
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 546 of 815 (897959)
09-16-2022 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 506 by Percy
09-15-2022 11:09 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes:
I don't believe you mean this for a second. Within some small number of messages you'll again be back to your claims of evidence. For example, you still believe that the mere existence of life is evidence of a "cosmic intelligence" or "external intelligence" or whatever term you move on to in the future. But it isn't evidence. It's your personal opinion.
Call it what you like, but we now have conscious sentient life, and in my personal opinion, it is more likely to have come from an intelligent source than a non-intelligent source.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 506 by Percy, posted 09-15-2022 11:09 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 548 by Percy, posted 09-16-2022 8:18 PM GDR has replied
 Message 552 by PaulK, posted 09-17-2022 2:34 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5646
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 547 of 815 (897960)
09-16-2022 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 508 by Tangle
09-15-2022 12:18 PM


Tangle writes:
There have always been a few intellectuals arguing the toss about biblical issues - so long as they lived in jurisdictions and in times that didn't get you burnt alive for doing it.

But the people were illiterate and the bible was not trusted in the hands of the laity. In England only latin bibles existed and those that tried to translate it for the people were burnt. The people got their knowledge of the bible from the pulpit and what they got was fire and damnation.
Ya - not good. It was about control, and the church had too much political power and were more than a tad reluctant to give it up.
Tangle writes:
Stuff like Noah's Ark and the Flood were being preached in ordinary churches and in bible classes back in the 60s when I was being forced fed the stuff.
Sometimes it's easier just to treat it like it is a literal account, knowing it's not meant to be literal. From a Christian perspective I see the message being that even if there is only one good man left, God doesn't give up on us. The other message from that account is that God cares about the animals.
As always the church has stuff to answer for, but it does a lot of good as well.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 508 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2022 12:18 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21180
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 548 of 815 (897962)
09-16-2022 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 546 by GDR
09-16-2022 7:24 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Call it what you like, but we now have conscious sentient life, and in my personal opinion, it is more likely to have come from an intelligent source than a non-intelligent source.
Yes, it's your personal opinion. That was my point. You're supposed to understand that personal opinions are meaningless. There are billions of people out there and all have various numbers of personal opinions not worth discussing.
Views worth discussing are backed by evidence and argument that can be weighed and assessed. You can't just say you have evidence - you have to actually have it.
Your lack of evidence means that your personal opinion that God exists is equal to someone else's personal opinion that the invisible spaghetti monster exists. The reason that belief that gods and spaghetti monsters exist does not come anywhere near in validity to the consensus that the Higgs Boson exists is because of evidence. This simple fact about the importance of evidence is not going to change. Without evidence you are unmoored.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 546 by GDR, posted 09-16-2022 7:24 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 570 by GDR, posted 09-19-2022 5:04 PM Percy has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5646
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 549 of 815 (897964)
09-16-2022 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 512 by Tangle
09-15-2022 4:34 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Tangle writes:
The book hasn’t changed, nor has its meaning. It’s God’s word, how could it?
The wording has changed somewhat as there is a growing knowledge of the early Greek literature and Greek language and idioms. However, I would say that with the increasing knowledge of the language, as well as with a far better understanding of the time and culture that the various books of the Bible were written in, our understanding of the Bible continues to evolve.
Tangle writes:
What’s changed is US. Or at least some of us. You try to put the words into your context as a 21st century, liberal Westerner. To do that you really mustn’t read further than the sermon on the mount otherwise you’re in a lot of trouble.
I agree that the Sermon on the Mount is central to the Christian faith.
IMHO the NT has to be understood in many cases by reading the OT. The OT is quoted in so many cases in the NT. I then think that in order to understand the OT one has to look through the lens of what Jesus taught to understand it.
For example you can't square the genocide or public stoning in the OT with Jesus' message of loving your enemy.
I do agree that the Sermon on the Mount covers the whole social Gospel message.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 512 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2022 4:34 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 553 by Tangle, posted 09-17-2022 3:02 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5646
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 550 of 815 (897965)
09-16-2022 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 525 by AZPaul3
09-15-2022 9:36 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
AZPaul3 writes:
Well personification being what it is then no, not necessarily.

But you knew that.
Ya, it was meant to illicit a smile.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 525 by AZPaul3, posted 09-15-2022 9:36 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 554 by Percy, posted 09-17-2022 8:55 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5646
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 551 of 815 (897966)
09-16-2022 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 526 by nwr
09-16-2022 12:58 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
I agree that there is no way to tell. But why do you think that matters? What difference does it make?
I guess it matters as if there is an outside influence it then raises the question of what should that mean for our lives, if anything.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 526 by nwr, posted 09-16-2022 12:58 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17255
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 552 of 815 (897970)
09-17-2022 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 546 by GDR
09-16-2022 7:24 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
Call it what you like, but we now have conscious sentient life, and in my personal opinion, it is more likely to have come from an intelligent source than a non-intelligent source.
Because you don’t care about the truth, only about propping up your personal belief,
Obviously this sort of thinking leads to an infinite regress. And it seems obvious to me that evolution is a more likely cause of intelligence than anything you might propose for your assumed “cosmic intelligence” - and that can be backed by at least some evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 546 by GDR, posted 09-16-2022 7:24 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 573 by GDR, posted 09-19-2022 8:30 PM PaulK has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8676
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 553 of 815 (897971)
09-17-2022 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 549 by GDR
09-16-2022 8:27 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
I agree that the Sermon on the Mount is central to the Christian faith.
It's not without problems of course, the main one being that Jesus never said any of it.
quote:
The five discourses in the Gospel of Matthew are: the Sermon on the Mount (5-7), the discourse on discipleship (10), the discourse of parables (13), the discourse on the community of faith (18), and the discourse on future events (24-25).[4] However, like all or most of the other "discourses" in Matthew, the Sermon on the Mount should not be seen as an actual speech by Jesus of Nazareth but as a literary construct by the Gospel writer using material drawn from various places in his sources,[5] i.e., Q (the non-Markan source he shared with Luke), Mark, and his own unique sources or sources (M).
Sermon on the Mount - Wikipedia
Jesus had speech writers. They were so good that Jesus didn't actually need to give the speeches. Somebody - literally god know who - made them up decades after the probably fictitious Jesus had died.

Edited by Tangle, .

Edited by Tangle, .


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 549 by GDR, posted 09-16-2022 8:27 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 574 by GDR, posted 09-19-2022 8:49 PM Tangle has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21180
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 554 of 815 (897975)
09-17-2022 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 550 by GDR
09-16-2022 8:29 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Ya, it was meant to illicit a smile.
You're attaching a smilie to a comment acknowledging that you were wasting people's time? People thought you were serious and responded to that. That smilie belongs at the end of Message 521 so you wouldn't have wasted people's time.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 550 by GDR, posted 09-16-2022 8:29 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5646
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 555 of 815 (898039)
09-17-2022 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 528 by Percy
09-16-2022 7:28 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes:
So much for eyewitnesses.
That is actually changing. It completely ignore the works of all the early church fathers. It is based on the internal evidence only. I have gone through the arguments for what is in the wiki article and in each case it could be argued for or against the later dating of the Gospels.
Yes, many of the universities are now reviewing that position and looking at the time in which the Gospels were written. I have read quite a bit on the subject including all of Bauckham's tome. I read a book by David Alan Black called ]Why 4 Gospels where he argued for Matthean priority and a much earlier writing.
However, neither of us will convince the other and it is entirely off topic anyway.
Percy writes:
History records a great deal about Simon bar Giora, but of Jesus, nothing.
Well ya, bar Giora led a revolt that had some early success but ultimately wound up with the Romans destroying Jerusalem and the Temple. Jesus' idea of revolution didn't involve violence. It wouldn't be seen as noteworthy at the time.
Percy writes:
History records a great deal about Simon bar Kokhba, but of Jesus, nothing.
Same answer.
Percy writes:
Paul, an itinerant preacher who founded churches in the Jewish diaspora, created the religion that eventually became Christianity. There is no way of knowing whether he based Jesus upon a real person, a composite of real persons, or made him up out of whole cloth, but that the gospels are works of fiction, just like the Bhagavad Gita, the Quran and the Book of Mormon, there can be no doubt.
If you say so. There are numerous very bright, very well educated people in this world who would disagree, but you claim there is no doubt.
Percy writes:
The writings that did survive until today are the testimonies of the early Christian churches of the Jewish diaspora which had never had any contact with Jesus and had no reliable source of information about him.
We simply disagree, and I can present nothing that you won't dispute.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 528 by Percy, posted 09-16-2022 7:28 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 556 by AZPaul3, posted 09-18-2022 11:05 AM GDR has replied
 Message 557 by Percy, posted 09-18-2022 5:28 PM GDR has replied

  
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