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Topic: Choosing a faith
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 178 of 3694 (897274)
09-01-2022 3:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 173 by GDR
09-01-2022 2:29 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
So your entire argument comes down to this
OK, but that still doesn’t preclude the possibility of that supernatural entity continuing to influence us to choose love over hate. To get this far you've accepted evolution and discarded Christianity as the necessary answer, yes? Any god will do but you have a preference for yours? So we have Deism. A god that created everything billions of years ago and created a program to make people from base chemicals over a few billions of years, on a single planet amongst unknown trillions of others. Gosh we're special, but it does seem like a waste of an infinite universe doesn't it? Well ok, no one can prove that wrong, it's just that there's no evidence for it. We're an awful long way from a god that intervenes in everyday life, but we're past that specific theism now.
Let’s look at Occam’s Razor. You contend that a nearly infinite number of mindless processes essentially by chance has evolved into conscious sentient life. I contend that there is one creative intelligence, not restricted by the one dimension of time as we know it, that alone is responsible for our existence. Which is the simplest explanation. If you invoke an intelligent creator to explain the complexity of life, the universe and everything, you make something necessarily more complex. Hence Occam slices it away. He can do that because he knows that every other process ever discovered in our universe occurs naturally. There have been no godlike interventions. Also, since the enlightenment, at every point where god was required by religious to step in and explain something science proved it wrong, geocentrism, immutability of species, age of earth etc. And in any case, the causeless cause is no answer to anything. It leaves the question unanswered.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 173 by GDR, posted 09-01-2022 2:29 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 204 by GDR, posted 09-02-2022 5:16 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 205 of 3694 (897316)
09-02-2022 5:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 203 by GDR
09-02-2022 4:52 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: But it is the same for the atheistic position. It is claimed that that altruism, along with everything else has a completely mindless root. It's claimed and it's evidenced. Plus there is no Mind that anyone can find.
I don’t disagree that people can be nudged towards altruism by others. That doesn’t at all preclude that the first cause for altruism is an external intelligence. Nothing precludes a supernatural being that doesn't present itself to us in any way. In that respect it's Russel's teapot and can be disregarded.
If I am right about there being a god meme, then we do unconsciously here from a deity.
Why should anyone but you be interested in that?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 203 by GDR, posted 09-02-2022 4:52 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 216 of 3694 (897333)
09-03-2022 3:45 AM
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Reply to: Message 204 by GDR
09-02-2022 5:16 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: Look at it this way. If someone from 300 years ago were to be transported into today and came upon a factory with only robots producing widgets which was being remotely controlled, it would appear that the robots are responsible for widgets. He wouldn’t know that the robots were designed by humans or even that there was human input into their functioning. (you could also look at AI as an example.) Can you see that this is exactly what you are doing when you say that god did it? It's an argument from ignorance - a fallacy. The ‘primitives' looking at the robot have jumped to a wrong conclusion haven't they? They've failed to properly understand what they're looking at and got the wrong answer. They look pretty foolish on their knees worshipping a man-made robot making 'god'. (Reminds me of the cargo cult tribes worshipping Prince Philip) But they wouldn't stop at the robots would they? They'd then ask what made the robots and when they eventually worked out that it was just better educated people, they have to insert God again; just a bit higher up the ladder. It's an infinite regress until the believer inserts the entirely imaginary full stop of the uncaused cause. The last few hundred years of scientific discovery has shown us that when we don't fully understand something, the very worst thing to do is invent a totally unevidenced answer.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 204 by GDR, posted 09-02-2022 5:16 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 235 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 5:08 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 229 of 3694 (897361)
09-03-2022 3:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 226 by GDR
09-03-2022 2:54 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: Either way, it is belief and we will disagree I imagine on which is the most probable. This is one of a whole set of real annoyances for me. This equivalence stuff. "Your disbelief in god is the same as my belief in god." Please don't do it. It really isn't the same thing and when it's said it just shouts disingenuity. I accept your belief, please accept my disbelief. Note disbelief. I do not believe in your belief. That is not the same as believing in something equal and opposite. There is nothing to believe in so I have no belief. The only way I've ever been able to communicate this is with the old "If not believing in god is a belief, then not collecting stamps is a hobby" thing. But those that believe can't understand lack of belief. I don't understand why this is but they just can't understand how anyone can't believe, so mirror that back onto non-believers. Don't do it, it's wrong-headed even if it makes you feel better..
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 226 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 2:54 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 243 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 5:33 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 230 of 3694 (897362)
09-03-2022 4:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 228 by Phat
09-03-2022 3:54 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Phat writes: Critical thinkers/willing atheists want to be freed from the whole God meme or belief concept. Please read the above. Atheists don't belief your stuff. Just like you don't believe Thor's stuff. It's a non-thing. Nothing. We don't "want to be freed", there's nothing to be freed from. It's an irrelevance to us. Please try to accept that a non-belief is exactly that, nothing.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 228 by Phat, posted 09-03-2022 3:54 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 241 of 3694 (897374)
09-03-2022 5:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 235 by GDR
09-03-2022 5:08 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: There is always the question of who or what made God which of course all I can do is claim, without evidence, that God is outside of time as we know it. That's meaningless. As meaningless as me saying that the god that made your god is outside physics. Anybody can say anything.
Can you show me scientifically how an uncaused cause is possible within your materialistic universe? What is the evidence for that. Of course not it's garbage. It's you that needs the uncaused cause, not me. Who made your god?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 235 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 5:08 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 246 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 6:01 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 245 of 3694 (897378)
09-03-2022 5:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 243 by GDR
09-03-2022 5:33 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: Presumably then you do believe in a universe which can ultimately be explored scientifically as being all there is. Is that correct? No, but it's a start. I don't believe in your god or anybody's god. That's an end to it. It's nothing more complicated than that. Exactly like you don't believe in Father Christmas. Exactly like that. I don't have a substitute belief to make it easier for you to understand. As to whether we'll ever understand life the universe and everything, I can't see any reason at all why we should be able to. We're just evolved apes, why should we? It's just hubris. Doesn't stop us trying though.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 243 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 5:33 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 247 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 6:03 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 249 of 3694 (897382)
09-03-2022 6:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 246 by GDR
09-03-2022 6:01 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: Doesn't there have to be a natural materialistic first cause in your view of things? I have absolutely no idea and neither has anybody else. All we actually know is that everything we've examined critically so far has natural causation. There is also growing evidence that causation isn't necessary. But if that proves to be a fact you and I won't understand it and it won't affect your beliefs. Your beliefs are not founded on reason so reason won't change them.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 246 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 6:01 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 266 of 3694 (897408)
09-04-2022 6:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 248 by GDR
09-03-2022 6:09 PM
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Re: Hi all
GDR writes: There are so many of you replying to my posts that I have tried to keep up and can't. Just when I think I'm caught up for are 3 more posts to answer. I do have another life and I have to get at it. Done for the day. I have a lot of sympathy for that. Take your time. Pick the points you want to reply to. Meanwhile we'll play with Phat and the real loonies, they're immune. We rarely get a semi-sane one around these parts these days.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 248 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 6:09 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 280 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 1:13 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 270 of 3694 (897414)
09-05-2022 6:50 AM
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Posted this before but it's one response to the something from nothing problem. Skip the very long introductions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwzbU0bGOdc
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 271 by Percy, posted 09-05-2022 10:00 AM | | Tangle has not replied | | | Message 291 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 3:12 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 300 of 3694 (897449)
09-05-2022 4:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 291 by GDR
09-05-2022 3:12 PM
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GDR writes: However it makes the point that it is plausible that the laws of the universe do not need a cause. er, that's my point not yours... you say the universe needs an uncaused cause and that cause is your god. I say not necessarily and gave you some current theory that says maybe it doesn't.
However he goes on to say that it doesn't explain the existence of particles in the first place. Can you show me where he says that, I suspect you misunderstood something.
Also of course if his explanation is plausible, (which I agree it is), then other explanations are also plausible. That's a non sequitur. Something specific being possible does not make something different possible.
Also his talk is about the physical universe and doesn't explain the emergence of consciousness. He doesn't give a recipe for egg custard either.
He also says, (in the question period), that there is a limitation to science as we live in a single universe. He mentions the multi-verse in saying that if that is the case then science won't be able to investigate them. That takes me back to that front page headline in Scientific American which asks the question: "Is an Entire Universe Silently Woven Into Our Own". If that is the case then is it possible that an interwoven universe impacts the world we live in here? Then I would wonder if the connecting point between the two might possibly be through consciousness. You're all over the place GDR. What you heard was science, what you're talking about now is pure woo. You're trying to jamb your belief into science, it's a bit embarrassing. If you need to believe in Christ just do it, but please don't pollute the science with your personal fantasies. You can't just ad hoc your way into cosmic physics.
It also takes me back to the question of which god that I started with. In addition to theism I might add that the atheistic position, as I understand it, involves making us gods in the sense that right and wrong are simply human constructs, which could well make that position of being one of the available gods. How many times GDR? Atheism is a lack of belief in god - any and all gods. NOTHING ELSE! Please, please, please stop trying to make it more than that. Morality has nothing to do with atheism and vice versa. They are independent variables. Right and wrong has got nothing to do with god and nothing to do with atheism, it's an evolved trait conditioned by our culture. What an individual believes about right and wrong is subjective and varies depending on when and where he was born and the culture he was born into. Moral feelings can be changed with drugs and by brain injury. It's not an absolute, it varies over time, between cultures - and religions. In some modern cultures it's moral to throw homosexuals out of tall buildings and stone people with different beliefs.
At any rate thanks, although like one of the questioners said, my head is spinning. Please remember that the presenter is a real scientist, presenting real science. Difficult science way beyond anything that you or I can understand. He's also an atheist so it's unlikely that anything he says is helpful for your argument, so don't twist it. He might also be wrong - not about facts but about speculation beyond them.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 291 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 3:12 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 312 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 6:27 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 319 of 3694 (897468)
09-06-2022 3:16 AM
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Reply to: Message 312 by GDR
09-05-2022 6:27 PM
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GDR writes: Certainly, but as he said it only makes it plausible ,which means that it is something one can choose to believe or reject for another possibility. Neither of us can rationally believe or reject these hypotheses because neither of us has the physics to argue in either direction. We can only wait and see which way the consensus falls and hope for experimental confirmation. That's the scientific way. The religious way is to reject any information that throws doubt on personal belief long after it has achieved foundational status. The theory of evolution is the obvious example. The straws that you are trying to grasp at are getting increasingly small and very far away.
I am simply saying that he agrees that science has limitations and I used the example he gave.
Also, what I was saying has nothing to do about my specifically Christian beliefs. The point is I am simply trying to make a case for an intelligence that is responsible for our existence. It's not particularly surprising to hear that science has not yet found the answers to everything. But that is not an excuse for you to insert your particular beliefs where you think the holes are. If you place your god in those holes, you'll find he gets squeezed as knowledge increases.
Can you define what you mean by a god. Would a deistic god be included in that or are you just including any god that humans have believed in You're asking an atheist to define a god? Humph… Let's start with excluding out-of-hand all the thousands of gods, ghouls and gremlins that humans have believed in. They're all plainly barking mad human inventions. Deism? An unknown and unknowable entity that created a universe at least 13.7 billion years ago, then took no further interest in it? The idea is as relevant to humans trying to scratch a hard life here as a universe that created itself from nothing. ie an irrelevance to all but the idiots who think that they can sit in an armchair and just invent 'answers' that make them feel comforted.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 312 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 6:27 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 350 by GDR, posted 09-07-2022 11:35 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 341 of 3694 (897505)
09-06-2022 6:26 PM
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Normally the belief comes before the justifications for it. It's either instilled from birth and reinforced thereafter at home, school and church or found later in life through some sort of revelation that feels impressive to them but sounds daft to others. We should really be trying to understand the psychology of revelation rather than hope that scientific rationalism will change the minds of the born and the born again. The stupid don't understand and the clever try to apropriate it.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 343 by AZPaul3, posted 09-06-2022 9:18 PM | | Tangle has not replied | | | Message 369 by GDR, posted 09-07-2022 6:13 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 349 of 3694 (897518)
09-07-2022 3:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 346 by GDR
09-07-2022 1:51 AM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GR writes: With evolution you can go back thousands of years which provides a physical record of our physical evolution. You can speculate that altruism grew along with the evolutionary process without any external input but it isn't science. Because it's an established fact for over a hundred years now, that ALL life here evolved by a natural process, science makes the assumption that all the attributes of life evolved by natural processes too. It would be bad science to excluded a single attribute without evidence just because a particular religious group hopes that it was supernatural. In order to change that orthodoxy you have to provide evidence not just say "I believe that..." So I suggest that you get on with it - scientifically. I wish you'd at least try to understand the no equivalence argument. It's a constant error. It's not reasonable to say that because science can't prove god didn't do it then it's as least equally possible that he did. In fact, given the evidence for natural processes and the lack of evidence of the supernatural a reasonable person would rule it out entirely.
if you start from the atheistic position then of course there is no question, and if someone doesn't agree they must be not too bright. However, if you start from a theistic position it makes sense. That is a total corruption of science and the scientific method. Where a person starts from should have no baring on the conclusions reached - if you're following the evidence not your belief. Of course 'where a person stands affects what a person can see' and no-one is without bias. That's why we have a scientific method; it means that you have to show your workings so that everyone working in the field you're reporting on can pull it to pieces. It's a savage process, positively Darwinian - only the fittest theories survive.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 346 by GDR, posted 09-07-2022 1:51 AM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 372 by GDR, posted 09-07-2022 6:27 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 353 of 3694 (897527)
09-07-2022 12:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 350 by GDR
09-07-2022 11:35 AM
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GDR writes: That gets back to the point of why I started this thread. It isn't about what we name the our god but the nature of the such a deity.
You have no way of knowing the nature of any so-called deity. Some gods allegedly have books written about them - by humans, usually anonymously. In your case it's the two Testaments; one of which you say is mostly myth the other open to interpretation. That's all you have.
I venture to say that there are many Christians out there that worship a different god than I do even though we both name our deity God. It is the same for members of the Islamic faith although all name their deity Allah. I know people that are atheist or agnostic who are more Christ like than some Christians I know. All of which just shows how contradictory your position is. And yet...
I see that as being consistent with the Gospels.
... we then we get the apologetics to make it fit what you personally want to believe. But if it doesn't convince other Christians, how is it supposed to convince an atheist?
In what we have of what Jesus said shows that there were only two people that Jesus said had great faith. One was a Roman centurion in Matthew 8 and the other was a Canaanite woman in Matthew 15. Both of these were outsiders and not of the Jewish faith. Even the parable of the Good Samaritan uses an example of someone who was essentially considered to be non-Jewish. Yeh, well, whatever. I can't regard your book as evidence of anything except someone wrote something once. It all comes down to early indoctrination and/or revelation. You believe in your interpretation of the book, all your other arguments are just post hoc rationalisations. Believe what you want to believe, but don't try to pretend any of it is rational and can be validated by science's discoveries.It can't and it will get even less so over time.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 350 by GDR, posted 09-07-2022 11:35 AM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 391 by GDR, posted 09-08-2022 2:29 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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