Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."

I am saying that we can't apply your addition rule to unlinked genes in diploid organisms. You are saying that we can. Who do you think is right? I will repeat:In bacteria, there is no crossover between copies of bacterial genomes because they are asexual and haploid. HGT does occur between bacteria on occasion and there are plasmids, but let's not complicate matters at this point. Let's say mutation I in gene X occurs in one bacteria in the population and mutation J happens in gene Y in a different bacteria in the same population. What would need to happen to get both mutations in the same individual in this case? We would have to have a repeat of the mutation in each of the lineages. However, the fittest of I and J could drive the other mutation to extinction in the mean time. All of this is very true in asexual populations.
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Is this the case in sexual populations? NO, not in the case of unlinked genes. Do you know why? Because descendants of those carrying mutation I and J can mate and have offspring with BOTH MUTATIONS. The mutations doesn't have to happen again. See the picture above on linked and unlinked genes.

You keep asking how we get two beneficial mutations in the same individual. Those pictures demonstrate how it is done in diploid organisms who are sexually reproducing.Notice the first case. You get a new allele combination between two different genes on the same chromosome. Notice the second case of unlinked genes. You get a new combination of chromosomes for different chromosome pairs.That's how diploidy, multiple chromosomes, sexual recombination, and meiosis affects DNA evolution.

We are all (except Kleinman) well aware of that.

Kleinman:

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There is nothing wrong with making an analogy of winning the lottery many times in a row as a model of abiogenesis since the winning of a lottery occurs by random chance.

Taq:

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Chemistry is not random chance. There's a reason why we have H2O and not H9O.
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And there's still a cookie in it for you if you can figure out why I said 9.

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ringo is now going to show us his chemistry experiment that demonstrates abiogenesis. He can do this because he knows his atomic numbers.

I already did that:Then let's look at achondroplasia which is caused by mutations in the FGFR3 gene and cystic fibrosis which is caused by mutations in the CFTR gene. More than 99% of people have the healthy allele for both and only an extreme few have both cystic fibrosis and dwarfism. So let's do the math:
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0.99A + 0.99B + 0.0000001C != 1
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Your math doesn't work. I just showed that it doesn't.

Why don't you show us the experiment where life was supernaturally created?

Kleinman:

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Is it your system to use the addition rule improperly?

Taq:

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I am saying that we can't apply your addition rule to unlinked genes in diploid organisms. You are saying that we can. Who do you think is right?

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I don't know to make it any clearer. The sum of the frequencies of the different alleles in a population must always equal 1. It doesn't matter which strand of DNA the allele is on, whether the gene is linked to some other gene or not. You are wrong. This is why you are having difficulty doing the mathematics of random recombination.

Kleinman:

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And we are still waiting for you to explain how diploidy, multiple chromosomes, gene linkage, meiosis, and sexual reproduction alter DNA evolution.

Taq:

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I will repeat:
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In bacteria, there is no crossover between copies of bacterial genomes because they are asexual and haploid. HGT does occur between bacteria on occasion and there are plasmids, but let's not complicate matters at this point. Let's say mutation I in gene X occurs in one bacteria in the population and mutation J happens in gene Y in a different bacteria in the same population. What would need to happen to get both mutations in the same individual in this case? We would have to have a repeat of the mutation in each of the lineages. However, the fittest of I and J could drive the other mutation to extinction in the mean time. All of this is very true in asexual populations.
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Is this the case in sexual populations? NO, not in the case of unlinked genes. Do you know why? Because descendants of those carrying mutation I and J can mate and have offspring with BOTH MUTATIONS. The mutations doesn't have to happen again.

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You are confusing the shuffling of existing alleles with the creation of new alleles (DNA evolution). How does the shuffling of existing alleles change the mathematics of DNA evolution (the creation of new alleles).

Kleinman:

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That is how populations diversify the gene pool. Show how your list changes the DNA evolution process. You won't because it doesn't.

Taq:

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See the picture above on linked and unlinked genes.

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The shuffling of existing alleles is not the creation of new alleles (DNA evolution). How does the shuffling of existing alleles create new alleles?

Kleinman:

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How does all of this affect DNA evolution?

Taq:

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You keep asking how we get two beneficial mutations in the same individual. Those pictures demonstrate how it is done in diploid organisms who are sexually reproducing.
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Notice the first case. You get a new allele combination between two different genes on the same chromosome. Notice the second case of unlinked genes. You get a new combination of chromosomes for different chromosome pairs.
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That's how diploidy, multiple chromosomes, sexual recombination, and meiosis affects DNA evolution.

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Recombination in some cases can get two beneficial mutations into the same individual, it can also cause the loss of two beneficial mutations in the same individual. You are still not answering the question of how the shuffling of existing alleles creates new alleles (DNA evolution). Or perhaps you are not being clear in your argument. Are you arguing that all the alleles necessary to give the reproductive advantage that humans have over chimps already existed in the primate precursor and that humans were just luckier than chimps in choosing their mates? If not, you should try that argument and don't say I never helped you. Perhaps you can use that principle with a chimp population and breed a biologist out of them.

Kleinman,I have this distinct impression that you have taken the Hardy-Weinberg principle and misapplied it. Here is the H-D equation (A is considered the dominant allele if memory serves):The Hardy-Weinberg equation is expressed as: where p is the frequency of the "A" allele and q is the frequency of the "a" allele in the population. In the equation, p2 represents the frequency of the homozygous genotype AA, q2 represents the frequency of the homozygous genotype aa, and 2pq represents the frequency of the heterozygous genotype Aa. In addition, the sum of the allele frequencies for all the alleles at the locus must be 1, so p + q = 1.Hardy-Weinberg equation | Learn Science at ScitableJust to note, this only applies to a single gene with the classical Mendelian alleles model of two alleles with one being dominant.This equation does not apply to variations in multiple genes. It only applies to a single gene and its alleles.

Kleinman:

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There is no intersection of these subsets, they are mutually exclusive. If you think there is an intersection of these subsets, point it out.

Taq:

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I already did that:

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Hey, dummy, my example doesn't have an intersection of the subsets, yours does.

Recombination isn't even needed if the beneficial mutations are on separate chromosomes.And yes, we can get a case where offspring lack both beneficial mutations, and they will be selected against. This is where natural selection comes in, and why offspring with both beneficial mutations can be favored by natural selection which drives the fixation of both beneficial mutations in parallel instead of forcing them to compete as we see in asexual organisms. It doesn't. Mutations produce new alleles.What I am trying to correct is your false claim that someone carrying beneficial mutation A must also have a new mutational event that produces mutation B in a separate, unlinked gene. This doesn't have to happen in diploid sexually reproducing species, does it? Instead, each mutation only has to happen once, and it can happen in separate individuals. In subsequent generations those beneficial mutations can be found in the same individual because of heredity, not because the mutation had to happen again.Do you agree with this or not?

Kleinman:

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ringo is now going to show us his chemistry experiment that demonstrates abiogenesis.

Taq:

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Why don't you show us the experiment where life was supernaturally created?

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I'm not the one making the claim that I have a scientific explanation for abiogenesis. ringo thinks it is just chemistry, let him demonstrate his claim with experimentation. You on the other hand are having difficulty explaining the physics and mathematics of descent with modification and adaptation. You keep confusing that physical process with sexual reproduction, recombination, and meiosis.

You said your equation applies to all gene variants in the human genome. Therefore, there should be no variants that have an intersection.Are you now saying that the equation you are using can not be applied to the gene variants in the human genome?

As I told your buddy Dredge, you can google that. There are lots of them. Thanks for noticing.

Taq:

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Kleinman,
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I have this distinct impression that you have taken the Hardy-Weinberg principle and misapplied it. Here is the H-D equation (A is considered the dominant allele if memory serves):
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The Hardy-Weinberg equation is expressed as:
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where p is the frequency of the "A" allele and q is the frequency of the "a" allele in the population. In the equation, p2 represents the frequency of the homozygous genotype AA, q2 represents the frequency of the homozygous genotype aa, and 2pq represents the frequency of the heterozygous genotype Aa. In addition, the sum of the allele frequencies for all the alleles at the locus must be 1, so p + q = 1.
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Hardy-Weinberg equation | Learn Science at Scitable
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Just to note, this only applies to a single gene with the classical Mendelian alleles model of two alleles with one being dominant.
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This equation does not apply to variations in multiple genes. It only applies to a single gene and its alleles.

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You don't have to limit frequency calculations to a single genetic locus. But, no matter how many loci you want to consider, the sum of the frequencies of all variants must always equal 1. If there are intersections in those subsets of different variants, you must subtract off those intersections otherwise you will be counting those variants twice.