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Author | Topic: Choosing a faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It says no such thing. We've been through that before. ... why don't you believe the Gospel of John when it is clearly stated that Jesus *was* in the beginning? It says the Word was around since the beginning and the Word is - duh! - the Word. I asked you to find ANY other reference to the Word being Jesus. I even did the homework for you. "The Word" always refers to words.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It says "the Word" - i.e. the Message. Social species were around long before humans. ... how could words be around since the beginning if all early humans could do was grunt?Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If you've got it, why do you keep bringing up the same old nonsense? So we are back to our old argument regarding the messenger vs the message. Got it.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
On the contrary, you've never posted an argument against it. Do that. Because your arguments are opinions and don't hold water...Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
1. An assertion is not an argument. Unless you can find the message in the tree rings, I would assert that the messenger created the trees indirectly. 2. I was simply pointing out that your no-speaking-humans point doesn't hold any water. 3. John speaks about words. The challenge remains: Find ANYWHERE else in the Bible that even REMOTELY suggests that "the word' was Jesus. Here, I did your homework for you again:
quote:Word means word. Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I only covered the New testament because I was searching for the Greek word logos. There may, in fact, be instances where logos was translated as something other than "word".
Your word search was thorough except that it only covered the New Testament. Phat writes:
I don't see why a Hebrew word translated as "word" should effect the translation of a Greek word.
Lets examine the instances of the word in its original Hebrew and peruse the Old Testament. Note the underlined.
Yes, the underlined, and everything else you quoted, refers to actual words.
Phat writes:
Good for them. the Bible is NOT inerrant. Those pesky liberal scholars were attempting to chip away at Biblical inerrancy even back then. And you really need to stop maligning liberals.
Phat writes:
Substitute "message" for "word". Jesus was the message become flesh; He was the personification of the message. He was NOT, the message. So John 1:1 does NOT say that Jesus was around since the beginning.
... and that Jesus, as God's character, could thus be correctly known and accepted as the Word become Flesh. Phat writes:
Your "ergo" doesn't work. Jesus was an example of the message; He was NOT the message itself. Ergo, John 1:1 does NOT say that He was around since the beginning.
Ergo, Jesus was in the beginning (before humans had evolved) and was made man (Nicene Creed) at a certain point in eternity birthed in time. Phat writes:
It's made up. It didn't happen. If Jesus was simply another human birthed by natural means, why do the stories suggest all of the attention? Why do commercials claim that their product is the greatest thing ever? Notice that their competitors claim that THEIR product is the greatest thing ever.
Phat writes:
But Satan is NOT the villain of the stories (see Job.) That's just another lie that you've been sold. Except that it is the villain in the stories, Satan, who is really controlling and manipulating the masses.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Not one of the better parables. The "king" made bad choices in whom he invited. Then he behaved childishly toward the man who wasn't wearing wedding clothes. (Considering that the guests were rounded up from the street corners, it's surprising that ANY of them were in wedding clothes.) That "king" needed a good spanking. Matthew 22:1-14 And the punchline, "For many are invited, but few are chosen," has little or nothing to do with the story.
Phat writes:
Nope. You're making that up.
ringo writes:
The messenger is inerrent and His message is inerrant (pure and unadulterated) the Bible is NOT inerrant. Phat writes:
With church tradition and two dollars, you can buy a cup of coffee.
Church tradition says He was around since the beginning. Phat writes:
Which has nothing to do with Him being around from the beginning.
One could argue that only GOD and the Holy Spirit were around since the beginning, but even then Jesus was likely the only human who embodied it (the Spirit) perfectly. Phat writes:
No it doesn't. ringo writes:
I poke at them because it annoys them And you really need to stop maligning liberals. It just demonstrates that you are neither rational nor Christian.
Phat writes:
Look in the mirror. You're the one who refuses to ever change his mind.
They really need to see the other side of the arguments and quit thinking their way is the best way possible. Phat writes:
I have never made any such assertion.
As for your assertion that it's all fiction? Phat writes:
Contenders for what? If you have any better contenders than Jesus, bring them up for examination.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And remember that being liberal is a GOOD thing.
You are so literal it hurts. Phat writes:
I don't have your capacity for swallowing lies about scripture without thinking at all.
You have absolutely no intrinsic insight into scripture, do you? Phat writes:
Yes, he made the mistake of "choosing" the wrong people, as I said.
The King invited common people (Gentiles) because the chosen people (Jews) ignored the wedding request. Phat writes:
It's a really, really long stretch to associate the parable with Adam and Eve.
The clothes symbolize a covering, much as God needed to sew clothes (a covering) for Adam * Eve after they ate the fruit of knowledge and metaphorically "woke up... Phat writes:
Not a "false fact" at all. God Himself said it.
... "woke up" to the false fact that they could have the knowledge of their Creator.quote: Phat writes:
You're contradicting God - not an auspicious start to your attempt to enlighten me.
(which humans will never come close to having) Phat writes:
But the wedding guests were NOT uncovered. They were just not dressed according to the whiny King's fashion sense.
This was why they became aware of their nakedness (lack of covering) ... Phat writes:
There was none. He was wearing what people wear on street corners. If the King was going to round up guests from street corners, he should have had an ounce of sense to realize that they would be dressed like people on street corners.
As for the naked guy at the wedding... Phat writes:
Now you're just piling silly on top of silly. He was INVITED to the wedding. Who goes to a wedding thinking he's the bride?
... perhaps he symbolized a commoner with an ego (such as you?) who thought he could come to a wedding little knowing that he was metaphorically the Bride (Bride of Christ)... Phat writes:
I can't do anything but roll my eyes at that. Of all the stupid excuses to malign humanists.... the King cast him out as a symbol and warning to secular humanists who feel no need to commune with nor be covered by a higher power than their chemistry books.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Are you admitting that your nonsense about the messenger being inerrant is made up?
The messenger is inerrant and His message is inerrant (pure and unadulterated)
ringo writes:
So? Are you suggesting that the Bible was not made up? Nope. You're making that up. Phat writes:
You have it backwards. The only way I could "prove" that you made it up is by quoting the entire Bible and going verse by verse to show that it isn't in there. Why do you always fail to provide a rational argument that proves that I made it up, rather than deny deny deny? The way it is done is YOU provide a rational argument for your claim.
Phat writes:
My point should be quite obvious. Church tradition is worthless. ringo writes:
With a chemistry book, you can make a cup of coffee without beans. So what's your point? With church tradition and two dollars, you can buy a cup of coffee. (And are you adding chemistry now to your list of hatreds?)
Phat writes:
Maybe so. Most of them are also conservative. It's possible to be wrong about more than one thing.
Most of your Christian friends wouyld likely agree that He was around from the beginning. Phat writes:
1. I am not a "contrarian" just because I point out where you are wrong. Only a contrarian with a love of chemistry books would challenge such a belief.2. I love a lot of books. Why shouldn't I? 3. Anybody who reads the Bible honestly would challenge such a belief. Phat writes:
It's two. And you do not get to poll the jury.
ringo writes:
The jury is still out on that one. It just demonstrates that you are neither rational nor Christian. Phat writes:
Must you ask?
Must I turn the other cheek? Phat writes:
It's getting pretty bad when you have to drag us back to 2007 to avoid using your own words. ringo writes:
​Will The Real God Please Stand Up? Contenders for what?Message 7 I'll ask again, contenders for what?Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
Who didn't? How many people predicted WWII prior to it happening. And all of them predicted it would happen in their lifetime. Nobody predicts wars in the distant future.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dredge writes:
There was no such prophesy ...quote:Looks pretty much like a prophecy to me. Jesus even links it to the prophecy of Daniel. Dredge writes:
Show us the misunderstanding.
.... you've misunderstood the Scripture. Dredge writes:
"This generation shall not pass" suggests that it will be a SHORT time. ... which suggests it could be a long time before the Messiah returns.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Sure he did. He QUOTED Jesus as saying, "this generation shall not pass." Matthew had no idea how long it would take... (Which is a bit ironic, since it already had.)
Phat writes:
Another failed prophecy.
Be it willing or unwilling, EVERY knee will bow. Phat writes:
That's what everybody should do - HONESTLY look at what the Bible actually SAYS. You, on the other hand, work very hard at turning a blind eye to the contradictions. How many beams can you stuff into your eyes?
The problem with skeptics is that many of you knowingly or unconsciously look for contradictions. Phat writes:
Not at all. YOU need to wishfully think that honest people have an ulterior motive.
You crave them You need them. Phat writes:
That's what Goebbels said.
All that we are trying to get through to you is that the message is true and real. Phat writes:
That's the problem. The truth WILL win out, and your lies will be exposed.
Granted we ignore many of your contradictions because in our minds the truth wins out eventually. Phat writes:
I have tried many times to get you to discuss "absolute truth" but you're afraid to do it. Is that because deep down you KNOW it's a ridiculous concept? In your mind, there is no absolute truth.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Not in the message you're replying to.
I said literal not liberal. Phat writes:
They are, as I've pointed out many times.
My interpretations are not lies. Phat writes:
No. They can't. There are legitimate interpretations and egregious lies.
First of all, anyone can interpret a book any way that they choose without lying. Phat writes:
Appeal to popularity is not a legitimate argument.
Second, my interpretations are shared by many believers. Phat writes:
How can you tell such a bold-faced lie? You get your interpretations from apologists on YouTube. And you refuse to discuss them.
Whats more, I interpret the scripture without boirrowing off of another mans interpretation. Phat writes:
Believers demonstrate that they have the Spirit by doing just this. Phat writes:
I didn't say I was more zealous than you. I said I understand your theology better than you do.
I realize that you claimed to once be a believer and insist that you were even more zealous than I am... Phat writes:
Wrong. I work at ignoring my intuition because intuition can not be trusted.
... but you seem to have conveniently forgot how to use your intuition... Phat writes:
You are the poster child for bad intuition. You are the prime example of NOT being in communion. If you were in communion, how could you say such horrible things about Jesus?
... which is ideally in communion with the Holy Spirit. Phat writes:
Thanks for the compliment.
Nowadays you would scoff at my claims, demand objective evidence for my beliefs (or at least rationally critical thought) and essentially question your way into doubt and unbelief. Phat writes:
It doesn't have to be. You could take your brain out of its parking-place behind the door and USE it.
Why you chose this path is beyond me... Phat writes:
Paul appointed himself as apostle to the Gentiles.
... if God made a mistake by appointing Paul as the Apostle to the Gentiles... Phat writes:
Nonsense.
Everyone knows God does not make mistakes.quote:And that's only the first example. Phat writes:
It's possible to connect Santa Claus to Bigfoot too. That doesn't make it right.
ringo writes:
Perhaps, but it is possible. It's a really, really long stretch to associate the parable with Adam and Eve. Phat writes:
No, it really doesn't.
The Bible fits together nicely. Phat writes:
All contradictions are not necessarily irony.
The irony is endless. Phat writes:
Rubbish. Jesus was around since the beginning and thus created Lucifer even before Lucifer fell from heaven and became satan. That fairy tale isn't even from the Bible. It's Milton.
Phat writes:
He invited people from the street-corners and then he complained about how they were dressed. Yes, that is whiny.
So now the metaphorical King is a whiny King, eh? Phat writes:
You're the one who is equating the king to the creator, not me.
You likely think the same way about the Creator. Phat writes:
Again, I refer you to Thomas Paine, who said that we are better able to run our own lives than some goober on a throne thousands of miles away. You mention that you would prefer He leave you alone and not fry your friends. You actually think you know how to run your own life and actions better without His help... Why don't you respond to what I say instead of just throwing the same crap at the wall over and over again?
Phat writes:
Where did you get that idea? ... even though it is organized religion that initially got your gall, some way somehow.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dredge writes:
Bring your argument here, in your own words. Read the link I provided in Message 1147.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dresge writes:
That isn't the point. You need to demonstrate that YOU understand it - by giving the argument in your own words. The article I provided is written in plain English ....even you should be able to understand it.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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