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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1261 of 3694 (900961)
11-03-2022 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1260 by Phat
11-03-2022 6:04 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Phat writes:
It figures you would quote Richard Carrier. Richard Carrier is a hack sent by satan to discredit the Jesus of the Bible.
You have no idea how mad that sounds have you?
But of course, you will always believe the guy with academic credentials over any believer I can't say that I blame you, given your respect for evidence and scholarly appraisal.
Make up your mind, is he a satanic hack or an accredited academic and scholar?
The question that you might ask yourself honestly is this:
"If for some reason the human race fails itself once again and we find ourselves in trouble collectively once again, are you willing to take another hard look at what believers claim to "see"
I've taken several 'hard looks' at what you believe, I suggest you do the same before you waste the rest of your life too
I won't ever be able to convince you. I can't.
Of course you can, you just have to do it with reason and evidence not this psychotic theistic drivel you keep spouting.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1260 by Phat, posted 11-03-2022 6:04 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1262 of 3694 (900963)
11-03-2022 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1257 by Tangle
11-02-2022 5:49 PM


Tangles Honest Response
( I saw this reply after I made the previous post)
quote:
The point I'm trying to make is that there is no real historicity for Jesus, let alone the miraculous stuff he's supposed to have done and how he saved the world an' all. Sure, there's acres of shelf space for Christian scholars and apologists but there's virtually no peer-reviewed history. There should be so much that it's beyond all doubt, but there's virtually none.

Jesus, if real, would be the most important guy that ever lived. But there's no factual evidence of him actually even existing! It's bizarre. We shouldn't even be able to have this discussion, it should be obvious to everyone. But it's not, simply because he left no historical footprint, just enormous mythology. There's virtual universal acceptance that Paul existed (even though a lot of his stuff is forged) but not Jesus. Why? How? It would have been so easy for there to be real evidence but it doesn't exist. And yet it was supposed to be so important.

I respect your answer and am actually encouraged by your frustration. It shows me that you want an answer that respects your desire for consensus with us. I don't have a lot of the answers that you seek, but I do have a quote from Lee Strobel's book, A Case For Faith that resonated with me and may or may not be helpful for you. its late, however, and I need sleep. In addition, I have to work today at 230pm and have an eye doctor's appointment at 900am. I'll get back to this..(I have the paragraph in mind that I want to share with you)

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1257 by Tangle, posted 11-02-2022 5:49 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1265 by Theodoric, posted 11-03-2022 8:28 AM Phat has replied
 Message 1267 by Tangle, posted 11-03-2022 8:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1263 of 3694 (900967)
11-03-2022 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1256 by GDR
11-02-2022 5:25 PM


Tacitus? Again?
You have brought up Tacitus before and I have shown repeatedly that what he says does not mean what you think it means. As you refuse to engage with me all I can say is your continued presentation of Tacitus without addressing the issues raised is extremely dishonest and deceitful.
quote:
TACITUS (c.112CE)

Roughly 80 years after the alleged events Tacitus allegedly wrote a (now) famous passage about "Christ" - this passage has several problems however:
* Tacitus uses the term "procurator", used in his later times, but not correct for the actual period, when "prefect" was used.
* Tacitus names the person as "Christ", when Roman records could not possibly have used this name (it would have been "Jesus, son of Joseph" or similar.)
* Tacitus accepts the recent advent of Christianity, which was against Roman practice (to only allow ancient and accepted cults and religions.)
* (No-one refers to this passage for a millenium, even early Christians who actively sought such passages.)

Thus, even if the Tacitus passage is not a later interpolation,
it is not evidence of a historical Jesus based on earlier Roman records,
but
merely a few details which Tacitus gathered from Christian stories circulating in his time (c.f. Pliny.)
Message 7

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1256 by GDR, posted 11-02-2022 5:25 PM GDR has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1264 of 3694 (900970)
11-03-2022 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1260 by Phat
11-03-2022 6:04 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Have you even read Carrier? He is a renowned scholar. It is interesting that you attack him personally, but do not address his arguments.
If you had any sense of decency you would bow out of this discussion after that ridiculous post. But no you will double and triple down.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1260 by Phat, posted 11-03-2022 6:04 AM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1265 of 3694 (900971)
11-03-2022 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1262 by Phat
11-03-2022 7:36 AM


Re: Tangles Honest Response
Lee Strobel? You attack Carrier but promote Strobel? Strobel has no relevant education or degrees in the subject matter. He is an ex-journalist that is now a Professor of Christian Thought. His arguments are easily destroyed by actual scholars on the subject. Even nonscholars like Earl Doherty show how feeble Strobel's reasoning is. But who needs arguments, facts and reasoning when you have faith.
Challenging the Verdict

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1262 by Phat, posted 11-03-2022 7:36 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1268 by Phat, posted 11-03-2022 10:30 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1266 of 3694 (900972)
11-03-2022 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1178 by dwise1
10-30-2022 12:42 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Unicode characters can be 1, 2, 3 or 4 bytes. Encoding can be 8-bit or 16-bit. I've never really gotten into it because 99%+ of cases are handled automatically. I should be able to work out proper handling of exception cases, but while exception cases abounded a decade ago (the reason for the database cleanup I did a month or two ago), today I haven't yet been able to make any happen on purpose so I can study what's going on. I need an example case.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1178 by dwise1, posted 10-30-2022 12:42 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1267 of 3694 (900974)
11-03-2022 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1262 by Phat
11-03-2022 7:36 AM


Re: Tangles Honest Response
Phat writes:
It shows me that you want an answer that respects your desire for consensus with us.
That’s not what I want Phat - I’m not even sure what it means. What I want is a reasoned, evidence based discussion.
I don't have a lot of the answers that you seek,
That’s my point, you really should. You’ve based your life (and after-life) on this one guy but you can’t even demonstrate that he even existed!
but I do have a quote from Lee Strobel's book, A Case For Faith that resonated with me and may or may not be helpful for you.
You really don’t get it; a random, feel-good, theistic quote isn’t going to do it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1262 by Phat, posted 11-03-2022 7:36 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1268 of 3694 (900976)
11-03-2022 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1265 by Theodoric
11-03-2022 8:28 AM


Theodoric rushes in to discredit Stobe
Seriously? Earl Dogherty? You pick another one of satans minions who seek to trash Christianity and in fact spend their lives writing books (earning a living, as Leee Strobel does) working for the antichrist rather than Jesus Christ.
Tit for tat, I suppose/
How Challenging the Verdict Fails to Overturn The Case for Christ
quote:
Lee Strobel presented his interviews of scholars in The Case for Christ as though he were a legal affairs journalist (which he was) who is researching the evidence in the case for Christ. He interviewed leading scholars who gave evidence for the traditional orthodox Christian view of Jesus as the Christ, the miracle-working resurrected Son of God, and he concluded that the evidence supports its truthfulness.
Earl Doherty, author of Challenging the Verdict, chose a similar legal motif, but this time in a courtroom. Where Strobel used this motif sparingly and effectively, Doherty uses it mockingly and unfairly. Doherty claims that he provides his opposing side the opportunity to “cross-examine” the scholars interviewed by Strobel. He neglects, however, to give the cross-examined witnesses an opportunity to respond to his critical statements. What emerges is not a coherent collection of evidence and argumentation but a strange monologue by Doherty while his witnesses remain silent.(...)Neither Challenging the Verdict nor Doherty’s Web site tells us the author’s background. He was, in fact, once the president of the Ottawa, a Canadian skeptic group, and is an occasional contributor to a small periodical, The Journal of Higher Criticism, edited by Robert Price and dedicated to denouncing the Bible. Doherty’s first book, The Jesus Puzzle, argues there is no credible evidence to believe Jesus existed as a historical person, a position that so contradicts the evidence that even most liberals he quotes, including the ultraliberal members of the Jesus Seminar, disagree with him. Virtually the only current view similar to his is in G. A. Wells’s volumes discrediting Jesus’ existence, which have been soundly refuted by, among others, Dr. Gary Habermas in his critical review in the Journal.
One of the problems in responding to Doherty is that, like many skeptics, he uses a shotgun approach that at first glance seems overwhelming because there is “buckshot” everywhere. Only as one patiently removes one small pellet at a time is it evident that the attack has not been fatal. The “case for Christ,” in fact, emerges from the smoke of Doherty’s attack virtually unscathed except for cosmetic complaints that could be said of any book dealing with complex issues in a popular manner.

It really all depends on what you want to do with your time. Do you want to reasonably support Jesus Christ or do you want to find ways to trash Him? And if the latter, I would think that one need to ask themselves why.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1265 by Theodoric, posted 11-03-2022 8:28 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1269 by Theodoric, posted 11-03-2022 10:45 AM Phat has replied
 Message 1273 by ringo, posted 11-03-2022 11:56 AM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1269 of 3694 (900978)
11-03-2022 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1268 by Phat
11-03-2022 10:30 AM


Re: Theodoric rushes in to discredit Stobe
All you have are personal attacks, how about making an argument supporting Strobel or showing he has some sort of credentials to actually make a valid argument?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1268 by Phat, posted 11-03-2022 10:30 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1275 by Phat, posted 11-03-2022 1:32 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1270 of 3694 (900980)
11-03-2022 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1253 by ringo
11-02-2022 4:23 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
The article I provided is written in plain English .... even you should be able to understand it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1253 by ringo, posted 11-02-2022 4:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1271 by ringo, posted 11-03-2022 11:44 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1274 by dwise1, posted 11-03-2022 12:04 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1392 by Percy, posted 11-24-2022 1:05 PM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1271 of 3694 (900983)
11-03-2022 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1270 by Dredge
11-03-2022 10:46 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Dresge writes:
The article I provided is written in plain English ....even you should be able to understand it.
That isn't the point. You need to demonstrate that YOU understand it - by giving the argument in your own words.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1270 by Dredge, posted 11-03-2022 10:46 AM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1272 of 3694 (900984)
11-03-2022 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1260 by Phat
11-03-2022 6:04 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Phat writes:
Richard Carrier is a hack sent by satan ....
Read Job.
Phat writes:
But of course, you will always believe the guy with academic credentials over any believer.
Duh. When you get on an airplane, don't you want the pilot to have credentials?

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1260 by Phat, posted 11-03-2022 6:04 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1273 of 3694 (900985)
11-03-2022 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1268 by Phat
11-03-2022 10:30 AM


Re: Theodoric rushes in to discredit Stobe
Phat writes:
You pick another one of satans minions....
quote:
Matthew 7:1-2 Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
If there was a Satan, and if he had minions, they would be believers.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1268 by Phat, posted 11-03-2022 10:30 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1276 by Phat, posted 11-03-2022 1:41 PM ringo has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 1274 of 3694 (900987)
11-03-2022 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1270 by Dredge
11-03-2022 10:46 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
The article I provided is written in plain English .... even you should be able to understand it.
The question is whether you understand it!
Creationists (evil by nature as you yourself noted) routinely cite articles which they have never even read! Or else they just read one sentence and ignore the rest -- eg, read the first line of the abstract where they present the problem that the article investigates and solves while ignoring the rest of the abstract where they tell us that they solved that problem and how they did it.
One of the worst cases (not Dr. Henry Morris' moon dust claim about a "1976" NASA document which was actually printed in 1967 from a 1965 conference as printed right on the front cover of the document) was a discussion I had with a creationist about the blatantly false leap-second claim (presents a highly inflated rate for the deceleration of the earth's rotation) who cited an article to support his position when in fact that article was the one which definitively refuted that claim. Not only did his own "supporting" article soundly refute his claim, but I'm sure that I had mentioned that same article and quoted from it earlier in the discussion.
So we do need for you to demonstrate that you did actually read your article and that you do understand what it says.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1270 by Dredge, posted 11-03-2022 10:46 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1275 of 3694 (900993)
11-03-2022 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1269 by Theodoric
11-03-2022 10:45 AM


Re: Theodoric rushes in to discredit Stobel
Theodoric writes:
All you have are personal attacks, how about making an argument supporting Strobel or showing he has some sort of credentials to actually make a valid argument?
Personal attacks? You started it by attcking Strobel. And I have not attacked either you or Tangle. I merely called out the skeptics you provided who earn a nice living off of trashing Christianity. As far as credentials go, what sort of credentials would you imagine are needed to defend a faith?
This isnt my first rodeo. I have examined arguments and counter-arguments over the years. You likely have also. I will admit bias in favor of arguments supporting belief but would argue that many of you are biased against Christianity solely because of the Right Wing and their politicizing of Christianity back when Falwell started the Moral Majority and continuing to this day. Thus we are both biased to a degree.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1269 by Theodoric, posted 11-03-2022 10:45 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1285 by Theodoric, posted 11-03-2022 9:09 PM Phat has replied

  
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