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Author | Topic: Choosing a faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
dwise1 writes: Possible, albeit intractable. As long as questions remain and the unknown has yet to be explored and understood, we must continue to explore, discover, and learn. We will never be able to learn everything, but we must still try. Do you really that I would think otherwise.
dwise1 writes: That would be the difference between "God of the Gaps" (GotG) and your "Science of the Gaps" (SotG). Unfortunately, you had not explored the ideas and their consequences during the nine years since you first posted mention (without explanation) of your SotG. Your views IMHO claiming that science can answer all philosophical questions such as the teapot example. That is SofG.
dwise1 writes: The GotG approach and attitude is "we don't know this and we never will, so therefore goddidit." Not only does that put a stop to any further research into those questions because of that empty goddidit "answer", but that goddidit becomes proof of God. So not only does it create the illusion of that question having been answered, but it also creates the situation in which any attempts at further research would be questioning God, something that believers would never allow. I suppose that can be a problem but have you ever heard of it actually happening the scientific world when someone stopped researching and just claimed that goddidit.? I would contend that science should impact our theology but not the other way around.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
AZPaul3 writes: Why did you choose this specific fantasy as your faith? Firstly it has been an evolving belief. I consciously decided that coming to a conclusion about what and why are we here seemed like an important endeavour. However, the deeper I got into it the more my views evolved and continue to do so. Essentially though I am convinced that Christianity, in a general sense, represents reality. I say in a general sense is because it isn't like scientific answers such as 2+2 always = 4.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
GDR writes: Maybe. We all put faith in something.Percy writes: oo general. Anyway, the most significant difference between our beliefs is that I know there's no evidence for what I believe and you don't. There are no scientific evidence for what I believe either other that for the fact I contend that the world of science points towards design and IMHO that requires a designer. However, I concede, though it is in reference to science, it is not evidence. It is simply my conclusion based on what we do know.
Percy writes: Agreed, people always need an excuse to justify their violent actions. Just read the OT. It too often doesn't and too often results in people shooting at each other and hurling missiles across borders.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Percy writes: There is zero evidence that we are not the product of an external intelligence. Essentially the only evidence that you and virtually everyone else on this site allows for is scientific evidence. All the possibilities with zero evidence are equally improbable. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? I say ten, you say eleven. Which is more probable? Neither.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Percy writes: In an absolute sense, we don't. Is murder immoral except in war? Many military units have chaplains. What do the chaplains say? I'll bet it isn't that killing the enemy is wrong. So much for your moral religion. Certainly it's a grey area. I am very close to being a pacifist but I do agree that there i such a thing as a just war. IMHO WW II and possibly the first Iraq war, (as Hussein had invaded Kuwait), but the 2nd Iraqi war wasn't, nor was Viet Nam. I remember that when I was in the air force thinking that I liked being on the C130 Hercules as we didn't have weapons on board unlike the guys on my course that went on to the fighters, although being in my 20's there was an attraction to going really fast. (I reaslize that there is a degree of hypocrisy involved as we flew missions in support of the fighters.)
Percy writes: You're looking for a certainty that doesn't exist. Making up a Guy in the Sky who you think knows for sure might make you feel better, but given all the immoral things that happen if He exists then He has no apparent effect. Or maybe we've misconstrued morality, for instance that murder is wrong, or lying is wrong. Maybe Trump is the most moral man on the planet. How would you know he's not? What you believe is based upon stuff you've made up, you have no evidence for anything, so anything is possible. I'm not looking for certainty as I know that it isn't there to be had. It is what I believe and put faith in.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Tangle writes:
Thanks I have a lot of sympathy for that. Take your time. Pick the points you want to reply to.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Percy writes: Again, I think you misunderstood what Tangle was saying. But scientifically you are correct, no one's view can be proven since nothing is ever proven in science. But also scientifically, it is not a case of just deciding what beliefs you accept. It's how much evidence is behind what you've chosen to accept, and you've just conceded there's no evidence behind your views. As someone else already noted, you're trying to convince yourself that your views and our views are on an equal footing. They're not. Our views have evidence, yours don't. This is usually the point where, in the past, you've begun arguing that you do too have evidence. We see a rock rolling down a hill and I contend that someone pushed it while you say that it just happened due to soil erosion or something. We can then look for someone who could have done it and we could look at soil conditions. Assuming there is no evidence for either scenario I just go on believing that it was pushed, and you go on believing that it wasn't.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
AZPaul3 writes: Thanks Just don't burn out! That would not be good. You're the brightest spark these haunts have seen since ... well, since when jar went missing and we had to call out a national manhunt.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Tangle writes: Posted this before but it's one response to the something from nothing problem. Skip the very long introductions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwzbU0bGOdc Wow, bright guy. However it makes the point that it is plausible that the laws of the universe do not need a cause. However he goes on to say that it doesn't explain the existence of particles in the first place. Also of course if his explanation is plausible, (which I agree it is), then other explanations are also plausible. Also his talk is about the physical universe and doesn't explain the emergence of consciousness. He also says, (in the question period), that there is a limitation to science as we live in a single universe. He mentions the multi-verse in saying that if that is the case then science won't be able to investigate them. That takes me back to that front page headline in Scientific American which asks the question: "Is an Entire Universe Silently Woven Into Our Own". If that is the case then is it possible that an interwoven universe impacts the world we live in here? Then I would wonder if the connecting point between the two might possibly be through consciousness. It also takes me back to the question of which god that I started with. In addition to theism I might add that the atheistic position, as I understand it, involves making us gods in the sense that right and wrong are simply human constructs, which could well make that position of being one of the available gods. At any rate thanks, although like one of the questioners said, my head is spinning. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Percy writes:
I watched it right through. Please see my reply to Tangle. To GDR: I hadn't seen this video before. I only watched a few minutes beyond the 13 minute mark, by which time it became obvious he was going to talk about things I already know, but they may not be things that you already know. If you're curious about scientific views (i.e., evidence-based views) of first causes of the universe and also of how it might end then this is well worth listening to.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
GDR writes: I would contend that science should impact our theology but not the other way around.Percy writes: I believe that I do. I'm just saying that some of the conclusions drawn from science around here are simply plausible conclusions, such as observing that morality is naturally infectious. (which I agree with), but then claiming it is scientific that there is nothing more involved. You should live this rather than just say it.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Percy writes: Relatively early in this process you should have reached some sort of conclusion along the lines of you're not going to find TRVTH. It's still a worthy exercise, but it's the journey that's important. The destination doesn't exist. I certainly always knew that I can't know the truth but I can conclude what I believe to be true.
Percy writes: ...and so should our religious beliefs. I think what you're trying to say is that science is tentative, always ready to change in light of new evidence or improved insights.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
dwise1 writes: Except there would be evidence of someone having pushed that rock, or at least of someone having been in the immediate vicinity of the rock's original location in the fairly immediate past: footprints!. No trace of anybody having been present would weigh against the "someone pushed it" hypothesis. By analogy, consider the small child explaining to his mother that he hadn't broken the lamp, but rather it was an elephant that had entered the room (and somehow hadn't upset anything else, just the lamp). Was it erosion? Examination would uncover signs of erosion, which does leave evidence. If physical support for that rock had eroded away or subsided, then there would be evidence of that. In the end, you are free to believe all you want to in your elephant who magically leaves behind no evidence of its passage. Just don't expect any agreement from those who actually examine the evidence. There could well be both footprints and erosion. The point is simply that we can choose to believe one or the other.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
GDR writes: There is zero evidence that we are not the product of an external intelligence.Percy writes: Sure, but posters here claim that because there is no evidence that there is a god as evidence that there isn't. Bit of a double standard possibly?
It must have been explained at EvC a thousand times that you can't prove a negative, and that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. These are obvious and inviolable principles, but somehow you keep tripping over them. Percy writes: I would disagree as I contend that there is such a thing as philosophical evidence. Scientific evidence is the only kind of evidence there is. In addition it is suggested that morality has come about because of personal interactions alone, or something like that), which is strictly from observation. In that scenario, the observation could just as easily lead to the belief that the facility for that to happen came from an external moral intelligence. Neither view is scientific or evidenced. AbE Wow! I am caught up.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
GDR writes: There could well be both footprints and erosion. The point is simply that we can choose to believe one or the other.dwise1 writes: No, that is not the point. Not by a long shot! If it's both, then it is both! Not either-or, but both! You are claiming the opposite, that if it is both, then you can pick either one and ignore the other. Wrong! If it is both then you must accept both. Not pick and choose what you want to believe and ignore the rest (like the cafeteria theology which we observe far too many Christians employing). Both means both. Absolutely. I do believe that it is both when it comes to morality in a culture. Both through an external moral consciousness and through normal human contact. You've finally nailed it.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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