Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 271 of 3694 (897417)
09-05-2022 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Tangle
09-05-2022 6:50 AM


Krauss's talk begins at about the 13 minute mark.
AbE:
To GDR: I hadn't seen this video before. I only watched a few minutes beyond the 13 minute mark, by which time it became obvious he was going to talk about things I already know, but they may not be things that you already know. If you're curious about scientific views (i.e., evidence-based views) of first causes of the universe and also of how it might end then this is well worth listening to.
I especially liked the pictures of Edwin Hubble, one of them showing him at work with an instrument. This should remind clerics and theologians that the way we learn about our world is not by thought exercises based on ancient religious texts but by studying the actual real world.
It's as if you're on a long overland journey that has you changing horses every so often. Each time you believe that perhaps now you've found the right horse. But you'll never find the right horse because there isn't one.
I think your journey is a worthwhile one, but I think you've misconceived the final outcome. The journey has no endpoint, no goal, because it is the goal.
--Percy

Edited by Percy, : AbE.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Tangle, posted 09-05-2022 6:50 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 3:15 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 272 of 3694 (897419)
09-05-2022 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
08-29-2022 2:49 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Phat writes:
I told my Counselor about EvC and about how nobody has changed their basic stance ever since I got here. He recommended that I cut it loose.
Typical cult behaviour - avoid any ideas that threaten your hide-bound beliefs.
Phat writes:
He said that everyone here has already made up their minds about what they choose to believe and that nobody will ever change.
Well, YOU told HIM that.
But the difference between you and us is that we welcome your crazy ideas.
Phat writes:
He wants me to make better use of my time.
By digging your trenches deeper?

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 08-29-2022 2:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 273 of 3694 (897420)
09-05-2022 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by dwise1
09-03-2022 6:22 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
dwise1 writes:
Possible, albeit intractable. As long as questions remain and the unknown has yet to be explored and understood, we must continue to explore, discover, and learn. We will never be able to learn everything, but we must still try.
Do you really that I would think otherwise.
dwise1 writes:
That would be the difference between "God of the Gaps" (GotG) and your "Science of the Gaps" (SotG). Unfortunately, you had not explored the ideas and their consequences during the nine years since you first posted mention (without explanation) of your SotG.
Your views IMHO claiming that science can answer all philosophical questions such as the teapot example. That is SofG.
dwise1 writes:
The GotG approach and attitude is "we don't know this and we never will, so therefore goddidit." Not only does that put a stop to any further research into those questions because of that empty goddidit "answer", but that goddidit becomes proof of God. So not only does it create the illusion of that question having been answered, but it also creates the situation in which any attempts at further research would be questioning God, something that believers would never allow.
I suppose that can be a problem but have you ever heard of it actually happening the scientific world when someone stopped researching and just claimed that goddidit.?
I would contend that science should impact our theology but not the other way around.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by dwise1, posted 09-03-2022 6:22 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Percy, posted 09-05-2022 1:08 PM GDR has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 274 of 3694 (897421)
09-05-2022 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
08-29-2022 2:49 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Phat writes:
I told my Counselor about EvC and about how nobody has changed their basic stance ever since I got here. He recommended that I cut it loose. He said that everyone here has already made up their minds about what they choose to believe and that nobody will ever change. He wants me to make better use of my time.
The best use of your time is to make sure you maintain an income stream and health insurance so that you can take care of everything else.
The next best use of your time is to take care of your health.
The next best use of your time is to make sure you have food and shelter (I would have put this second, but your health issues deserve special consideration).
The next best use of your time is maintain your social contacts and network, a key contributor to good health. Loneliness is a killer.
Whether it's health or gold or finance or politics or religion or counseling, you have a knack for making poor choices. Dump the counselor. You have an outstanding health plan. Get yourself a genuine psychologist who is highly respected. If they can see you this Wednesday, run. If they have a year-long waiting list and charge at least $200/hour (before insurance) then you've found the right person.
Since it will take a while before your first meeting with a good psychologist, here's an idea. I've known you for twenty years. At your next meeting with the counselor, teleconference me in. You can tell him beforehand that I think his advice is not conducive to good mental health. I'll tell him I think he should probe deeper and find out how you've changed as your health has worsened. I'll also tell him of your tendency to ignore your health issues, despite their seriousness. I'll also tell him how long you've been a member of this community and that everyone's noticed a change. I'll also tell him how the changes have coincided with your addiction to watching political and financial TV (i.e., YouTube videos) these last yew years. I'll also tell him how you have difficulty connecting facts to conclusions and that this makes you especially vulnerable to the appeals of not just the videos but of anyone with an emotionally appealing message.
A good psychologist isn't just there to listen, though that is very therapeutic in itself. He's also there to dig under the surface to discover what you're hiding from him, to get behind the facade that is the face you want to present publicly, to ask the questions and to go places you'd really rather not be asked or to go because they make you feel uncomfortable, and to do this with no fear that you'll walk away because they're the only path to mental health, whether you choose to stay or not.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 08-29-2022 2:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 275 of 3694 (897422)
09-05-2022 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by AZPaul3
09-03-2022 6:34 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
AZPaul3 writes:
Why did you choose this specific fantasy as your faith?
Firstly it has been an evolving belief. I consciously decided that coming to a conclusion about what and why are we here seemed like an important endeavour.
However, the deeper I got into it the more my views evolved and continue to do so.
Essentially though I am convinced that Christianity, in a general sense, represents reality. I say in a general sense is because it isn't like scientific answers such as 2+2 always = 4.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by AZPaul3, posted 09-03-2022 6:34 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Percy, posted 09-05-2022 1:23 PM GDR has replied
 Message 306 by AZPaul3, posted 09-05-2022 5:43 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 276 of 3694 (897423)
09-05-2022 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Percy
09-04-2022 9:58 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Maybe. We all put faith in something.
Percy writes:
oo general. Anyway, the most significant difference between our beliefs is that I know there's no evidence for what I believe and you don't.
There are no scientific evidence for what I believe either other that for the fact I contend that the world of science points towards design and IMHO that requires a designer. However, I concede, though it is in reference to science, it is not evidence. It is simply my conclusion based on what we do know.
Percy writes:
It too often doesn't and too often results in people shooting at each other and hurling missiles across borders.
Agreed, people always need an excuse to justify their violent actions. Just read the OT.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Percy, posted 09-04-2022 9:58 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Percy, posted 09-05-2022 1:42 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 277 of 3694 (897424)
09-05-2022 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Percy
09-04-2022 11:05 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes:
All the possibilities with zero evidence are equally improbable. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? I say ten, you say eleven. Which is more probable? Neither.
There is zero evidence that we are not the product of an external intelligence. Essentially the only evidence that you and virtually everyone else on this site allows for is scientific evidence.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Percy, posted 09-04-2022 11:05 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Percy, posted 09-05-2022 2:49 PM GDR has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 278 of 3694 (897425)
09-05-2022 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by GDR
09-05-2022 12:29 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
dwise1 writes:
Possible, albeit intractable. As long as questions remain and the unknown has yet to be explored and understood, we must continue to explore, discover, and learn. We will never be able to learn everything, but we must still try.

Do you really believe that I would think otherwise.
It's obvious that you think otherwise. Rather than assessing evidence on the merits you're cherry picking "evidence" to reach the conclusions you feel most comfortable with.
dwise1 writes:
That would be the difference between "God of the Gaps" (GotG) and your "Science of the Gaps" (SotG). Unfortunately, you had not explored the ideas and their consequences during the nine years since you first posted mention (without explanation) of your SotG.

Your views IMHO claiming that science can answer all philosophical questions such as the teapot example. That is SofG.
If I've missed some posts where someone has said something like this then I apologize in advance, but otherwise I have to protest in the strongest terms. I can't imagine anyone here on the science side saying that "science can answer all philosophical questions," and you can't help but know that no one has said this, because it's not like people have been vague and ambiguous about this.
The point everyone is actually making and that you can't help but know they're actually making is that science, i.e., the scientific method, is the best way we have of developing answers to our questions about the nature of the universe. In contrast, the methods of religion lead to many different answers to every question.
dwise1 writes:
The GotG approach and attitude is "we don't know this and we never will, so therefore goddidit." Not only does that put a stop to any further research into those questions because of that empty goddidit "answer", but that goddidit becomes proof of God. So not only does it create the illusion of that question having been answered, but it also creates the situation in which any attempts at further research would be questioning God, something that believers would never allow.

I suppose that can be a problem but have you ever heard of it actually happening in the scientific world when someone stopped researching and just claimed that goddidit?
Are you saying science need have no fear of the religious "goddidit" approach since no scientist has ever followed it? If so then that is just not true. Creationists constantly claim they're scientists who have concluded "goddidit". Henry Morris, founder of ICR, was a hydrological engineer who graduated from Rice University. Duane Gish, also of ICR, had a PhD from Cal Berkeley. Steve Austin had a PhD in geology from Penn State. Michael Behe, a professor with tenure at Lehigh University, has a PhD from Penn, originated the concept of irreducible complexity, and wrote Darwin's Black Box among other books. William Dembski, who originated the concept of specified complexity, has two PhDs, one in mathematics and another in philosophy, wrote The Design Inference, and has spent time at the Discovery Institute, was on the faculty at Baylor, and then at Southern Evangelical Seminary. I hope I needn't go on.
I would contend that science should impact our theology but not the other way around.
You should live this rather than just say it.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 12:29 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Phat, posted 09-05-2022 3:03 PM Percy has replied
 Message 293 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 3:27 PM Percy has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 279 of 3694 (897426)
09-05-2022 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Percy
09-04-2022 2:29 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes:
In an absolute sense, we don't. Is murder immoral except in war? Many military units have chaplains. What do the chaplains say? I'll bet it isn't that killing the enemy is wrong. So much for your moral religion.
Certainly it's a grey area. I am very close to being a pacifist but I do agree that there i such a thing as a just war. IMHO WW II and possibly the first Iraq war, (as Hussein had invaded Kuwait), but the 2nd Iraqi war wasn't, nor was Viet Nam. I remember that when I was in the air force thinking that I liked being on the C130 Hercules as we didn't have weapons on board unlike the guys on my course that went on to the fighters, although being in my 20's there was an attraction to going really fast. (I reaslize that there is a degree of hypocrisy involved as we flew missions in support of the fighters.)
Percy writes:
You're looking for a certainty that doesn't exist. Making up a Guy in the Sky who you think knows for sure might make you feel better, but given all the immoral things that happen if He exists then He has no apparent effect. Or maybe we've misconstrued morality, for instance that murder is wrong, or lying is wrong. Maybe Trump is the most moral man on the planet. How would you know he's not? What you believe is based upon stuff you've made up, you have no evidence for anything, so anything is possible.
I'm not looking for certainty as I know that it isn't there to be had. It is what I believe and put faith in.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Percy, posted 09-04-2022 2:29 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Percy, posted 09-05-2022 4:42 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 280 of 3694 (897427)
09-05-2022 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Tangle
09-04-2022 6:37 PM


Re: Hi all
Tangle writes:
I have a lot of sympathy for that. Take your time. Pick the points you want to reply to.
Thanks

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Tangle, posted 09-04-2022 6:37 PM Tangle has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 281 of 3694 (897428)
09-05-2022 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Percy
09-04-2022 7:16 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes:
Again, I think you misunderstood what Tangle was saying. But scientifically you are correct, no one's view can be proven since nothing is ever proven in science.

But also scientifically, it is not a case of just deciding what beliefs you accept. It's how much evidence is behind what you've chosen to accept, and you've just conceded there's no evidence behind your views.

As someone else already noted, you're trying to convince yourself that your views and our views are on an equal footing. They're not. Our views have evidence, yours don't. This is usually the point where, in the past, you've begun arguing that you do too have evidence.
We see a rock rolling down a hill and I contend that someone pushed it while you say that it just happened due to soil erosion or something. We can then look for someone who could have done it and we could look at soil conditions. Assuming there is no evidence for either scenario I just go on believing that it was pushed, and you go on believing that it wasn't.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Percy, posted 09-04-2022 7:16 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by dwise1, posted 09-05-2022 1:37 PM GDR has replied
 Message 302 by Percy, posted 09-05-2022 4:48 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 282 of 3694 (897429)
09-05-2022 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by AZPaul3
09-04-2022 7:28 PM


Re: Hi all
AZPaul3 writes:
Just don't burn out! That would not be good. You're the brightest spark these haunts have seen since ... well, since when jar went missing and we had to call out a national manhunt.
Thanks

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by AZPaul3, posted 09-04-2022 7:28 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 283 of 3694 (897430)
09-05-2022 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by GDR
09-05-2022 12:39 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Firstly it has been an evolving belief. I consciously decided that coming to a conclusion about what and why are we here seemed like an important endeavour.
However, the deeper I got into it the more my views evolved and continue to do so.
Relatively early in this process you should have reached some sort of conclusion along the lines of you're not going to find TRVTH. It's still a worthy exercise, but it's the journey that's important. The destination doesn't exist.
Essentially though I am convinced that Christianity, in a general sense, represents reality.
I think you're hooked on a feeling. You're certainly not hooked on evidence.
I say in a general sense is because it isn't like scientific answers such as 2+2 always = 4.
That's math, not science, and if you're working in any base except base 2 or 3 then the answer will always be 4. In base 3 it's 11. In base 2 the number 2 does not exist. You can't even say base 2 in base 2. You'd have to say base 10. It would not surprise me that there are other systems of mathematics where 2+2 does not equal 4, but what would be true is that in that system there would always be a consistent answer, even if it were stochastic.
I think what you're trying to say is that science is tentative, always ready to change in light of new evidence or improved insights.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 12:39 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by dwise1, posted 09-05-2022 2:08 PM Percy has replied
 Message 294 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 3:31 PM Percy has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 284 of 3694 (897431)
09-05-2022 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by GDR
09-05-2022 1:22 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
We see a rock rolling down a hill and I contend that someone pushed it while you say that it just happened due to soil erosion or something. We can then look for someone who could have done it and we could look at soil conditions. Assuming there is no evidence for either scenario I just go on believing that it was pushed, and you go on believing that it wasn't.
Except there would be evidence of someone having pushed that rock, or at least of someone having been in the immediate vicinity of the rock's original location in the fairly immediate past: footprints!. No trace of anybody having been present would weigh against the "someone pushed it" hypothesis. By analogy, consider the small child explaining to his mother that he hadn't broken the lamp, but rather it was an elephant that had entered the room (and somehow hadn't upset anything else, just the lamp).
Was it erosion? Examination would uncover signs of erosion, which does leave evidence. If physical support for that rock had eroded away or subsided, then there would be evidence of that.
In the end, you are free to believe all you want to in your elephant who magically leaves behind no evidence of its passage. Just don't expect any agreement from those who actually examine the evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 1:22 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 3:34 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 285 of 3694 (897432)
09-05-2022 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by GDR
09-05-2022 12:53 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
There are no scientific evidence for what I believe either other that for the fact I contend that the world of science points towards design and IMHO that requires a designer. However, I concede, though it is in reference to science, it is not evidence. It is simply my conclusion based on what we do know.
You're contradicting the hell out of yourself. One reaches conclusions by reasoning from evidence. You concede that in a scientific context what you have "is not evidence," but from this absence of evidence you are reaching conclusions anyway "based on what we do know." But "what we do know" is called evidence, which you just said you don't have.
Stop tying yourself in knots. You're only confusing yourself through the use of synonyms for "evidence," like "what we know."
You need to start following some basic rules for what constitutes evidence. Once you formalize a process for recognizing what constitutes actual evidence you'll be much happier. Then you can draw your conclusions based only on actual evidence, and then you won't find yourself saying something crazily contradictory like (paraphrasing), "There's no evidence but I've nonetheless reached these conclusions based on what we know."
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 12:53 PM GDR has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024