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| Author | Topic: Jar's belief statement- Part 2 | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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GDR Member  Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
I know that you are a fan of CS Lewis. In his book "The Great Divorce" he implies that we actually make the choice between heaven and hell ourselves. If we are not able to give up the pride that brings about a love of the self we will choose to wallow in the world of hell which rejoices in self love. If however we truly have a love of love, goodness, joy (joy in others), we will choose heaven.
My understanding of Christian faith to which I adhere is that we are all born with the potential to choose between these two types of love. (love of self and love of God and neighbour) By accepting Christ as Lord we are made more acutely aware of the differences in these two loves and nudged in the direction that God would have us choose. We still might choose not to respond to those nudges. I agree with you when you say that Paul, in the book of Romans, is clear that there are those outside of the Christian faith who respond to the message of love of love, goodness and joy, and that there are those within the faith that still do not respond to it. In the end it all boils down to who and what do we love. Everybody is entitled to my opinion. 
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
jar writes:
I agree. I think my position is closer to Lewis's and I wonder if you would agree with that.
I think we are close, but I may see it slightly differently. jar writes: I believe that the message of the GOE story is that we do know the difference between right and wrong. That is the great gift from the Genesis story I hate to sound stupid, (I know that anyone who reads my posts in the science forums would have trouble believing that. )but what is GOE? However I agree with your take on the Genesis story.
jar writes: I do NOT believe though that the choices are simply love of self and then love of others and GOD. This can get hard for me to put into words, but here goes anyway. I think in the statement of purpose "Love GOD and love others as you love yourself", the final part is important. I think before anything else, where you place yourself will set the limits of how you then love others and eventually, love GOD. Of course we are to love ourselves. Our lives are a gift from God, and we are meant to cherish that life. However, loving ourselves does not mean, "looking out for number one". Loving ourselves in God's eyes, (to the best of my understanding) means to use that gift of life in the manner for which it was intended which means loving God and loving our neighbour. When I talk about love of self, I'm talking about something as small as taking the biggest piece of pie for yourself or as big as starting a war in order to build up your earthly power and wealth.
jar writes: I have often thought that if the translators had chosen the modern word respect people would find the admonition easier to understand, but we work with what we got. You are not told to respect others, or even repect GOD more than you respect yourself. I disagree here. I can respect someone and not love them, or I can love someone and not respect them. I can hate the sins of a person like Ted Bundy but on the other hand I can love him by genuinely wishing that his life would be turned around and that he could come to a position of cherishing his life. I don't respect him. Greg Edited by GDR, : No reason given. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
jar writes: A baby isn't born into sin, anymore than a baby is born into running or skipping or standing on one foot or blowing bubbles or whistling; they are all things that the child must learn. What is right, what is wrong, are also things that must be learned. The capabilities are there just like the capability for running or skipping or standing on one foot or blowing bubbles or whistling, but we need to learn how to turn the potential into the reality. Sin is just making bad choices, nothing more, nothing less, but to make choices that are right and not wrong requires example, desire, mentoring, practice, failure and experience. We learn from our failures and those failures are our great asset. I don't think that it as simple as that. I think that we are out of necessity born into sin. No baby comes with a built in sense of altruism. Survival requires an infant to be totally self serving. It is only later that a child starts to recognize concepts like sharing and other altruistic behaviours. I think that we are all born into sin but I don't believe that statement is as condemning as it sounds, nor do I for one minute believe that at that point in time the infant would be damned if he/she were to suffer physical death. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
GDR writes: Survival requires an infant to be totally self serving.jar writes: Do you really consider that to be a sin? I do not see how it is possible to sin unless there is a choice involved. I didn't say that it was a sin. To be totally self serving means that you are living in a sinful state. It does not mean in the case of an infant that he is actually sinning, due in large part to the fact that there is no choice involved. It is just the way he/she is. However it is God's wish that we grow out of that sinful state as we reach the point where we can make choices. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
jar writes: If there is no choice involved, how can it be a sinful state? I suppose it's a bit like being in a crack house without shooting up. In my view an infant is born into a sinful state because he is born into an existence which is all about him/her. That in my view is what sin is about. The fact that the infant has no choice at that point in their life means that they are not guilty of any sin even though they exist in that sinful environment. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
The whole discussion seems to be around what constitutes a sin. Every moral decision we make hangs on the question of love. Does our action represent a love of God and our neighbour or is it all about self interest. If it is about the self then it is sin, if it is about love and God and neighbour it isn,t. In other words concentrating on sin is like focusing on the trees when there is a forest out there which is about love.
Of course there are all the nuances in between but God is quite capable about sorting that all out. In the final analysis again, I believe that it all has to do with the spiritual health of our heart. Who do we love; God and our neighbour or are we looking out for number one? IMHO Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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