Jar's belief statement- Part 2

I think that your post is a pretty accurate example of many Christians beliefs, pretty near spot on I'd say.But...first, my Belief Statement was like a travelog. It was a selection of a few faded snapshots out of a big album. Far more pictures were left in the book then were dragged out for the 'Belief Statement'.Faith made a claim that the story was brainwashing. I find that to be an absolutely amazing claim coming from someone who reads a Bible laced with commentaries. Such books don't even offer the possiblity of the person thinking about what is actually written but instead go straight to telling the reader what they must think.The reality is that I actually did spend a week pretty much agonizing over the question at that time and it is one that I constantly question even to this day. It was a direct challenge to what I thought I believed (which was in the statement just before what she did quote), that I was saved because I believed in Jesus. It would be so easy for folk to simply accept the warlord as Master and Savior, to profess or even truly believe. But what does that say about GOD?Another claim that seems to be made pretty regularly is that my Belief System is some soft and fluffy theology. I don't think so. I believe we are all responsible for our own acts. I cannot fall back on the excuse that I have a sinful nature because of some Fall and so I can't help it when I screw up. If I screw up it is because I made bad choices, not because of my Nature.I believe each of us will be judged, judged individually and completely, based on how we behave while here on earth.Another claim that seems to be part of the comments so far is that my theology is not that of the Bible. I think that is both true and false. First, I am not searching for the God of the Bible but for GOD. Second, the Bible, like Aesop's Fables (which also took form around the same time), is an anthology of anthologies, a collection of stories meant to convey the point of view of various peoples about how they saw God, themselves, their relationship with God and His with them, their relationships with their families and clan and with other clans and with all the other critters in the world.The God of the Bible is not GOD. Instead, like another old photo album, in the Bible we see snapshots of how the peoples saw their world and universe at a given moment. God may even be in some of the pictures, fuzzy, out of focus and unidentified in the crowd like a Biblical "Where's Waldo".As to the existance continuation thread, I am thrilled and shocked. Shocked because frankly I did not expect anyone to even read the original. Thrilled because I believe comment and discussions such as this thread so far where the issue of whether or not my learning experience is brainwashing is a powerful tool in its own as we all try to develop and hone critical thinking skills.One area of disappointment though is in the selective nature of the quotemining part so far. Further on in my Belief Statement (and I apologize for the length of the sucker, honestly I did cut out much in an attempt to keep it readable), I continue the discussion about questioning beliefs. Why was that excluded Faith? Why was that not also at least refered to?I honestly believe that there are two types of folk, those that look for Answers to questions and those who look for answers to Question. I believe this is an important distinction.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I agree. But that is not just the conclusion of that one experience, but rather the conclusion after a long and continuing journey of exploration and questioning. Your quote pretty much sums up what I have learned about the God of many Biblical Christians, it is an evil, petty false Godlet.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

And why do you think I did not question the fairness of the story?Why do you think the story is inappropriate?Why do you think that "There was no real thinking involved, no real questions, only an inexorable conclusion"?Why do you think that it is not an apt description of the Godlet of Biblical Christians?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, thank you. If you want to read the original it was here.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Although I was a kid (today the move towards confirmation is called Rite Thirteen) I was not "just a kid". I was a kid who had been raised in a Biblical Christian family and environment. In addition, you seem to use liberal whenever you don't want to address things or issues, more or less as your way of sticking your fingers in your ears it seems.It was a lesson, one of many, in challenging beliefs. Why do you fear challenging beliefs? The God you describe in your posts is evil. Well, as I have said, I think that the correct characterization of the warlord would be evil, like the God you portray in your posts. I read your reply to Jadris and disagree with some of the things you say. It is true that their currently is little immediate sufffering for those who are not your flavor of Biblical Christians, but that does not reduce the evil nature of the God you portray.You have said on other occasions that God calls people. That is even more evil, creating all and then only choosing a few. You have said that your Godlet knows what choices a person will make, which is yet another example of just how evil it is. You have said that only those who profess your Godlet will be saved. Yet more indications of an evil godlet.But...You tend to forget that it was but one of the snapshots in a brief survey of a few of the photos from a large collection. What you fixated on was just one of the stops on a very long jouney, on that continues on today and that will hopefully continue for at least a decade more.I think what you really fear is challenging yourself. You fear to look at your own beliefs, to test and temper your beliefs. This is why you so often push for pulling the kids YOU and your sedcts have control over out of the public schools. You fear, and I believe rightly, that if those kids were taught how to critically examine both their own beliefs and the available evidence they would realize that you and others have been teaching them to worship a false, evil, fearful God.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You make a particularly and patenty silly staement here yet then build on it as though you dont see that it is self falsified. First, if I never questioned it the rest of my jouney could not confirm it. It is only through questioning that one can confirm or falsify something.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

It asks the question "Is God a petty mean tyrant that will only save those who believe in him when it is within his power to save all."What is your answer to that question Faith? Is your God one that will only save those who believe in her when it is within her power to save all?"

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

jar asks:

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What is your answer to that question Faith? Is your God one that will only save those who believe in her when it is within her power to save all?"

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to which Faith replies: How is your God any different than the warlord? You agree that your God has the ability to save all, yet will only save those who believe in her, just like the warlord. How is your God different?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

That makes her seem even more evil I'm afraid.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No, I can't.First, you must ask others to explain their beliefs, I cannot do that.Nor can I tell you about conservative Episcopal theology.All I can address are MY Personal beliefs.I cannot imagine a GOD that creates damned folk. Why, does She get some sadistic pleasure from the act? Throwing in the idea of some Fall simply makes that Godlet even more incompetent and vindictive.I believe that GOD does not create folk with Damned printed on their forehead, never has, never will.I do believe that we are responsible for our actions and that we will be judged based on what we individually do.You insert: Why? Are you implying that I think that?Edited by jar, : appaln spallinEdited by jar, : -d

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

But that is not at all what I believe.Let me try another way to explain what I believe.Many Christians here and in the world seem to believe, or say that they believe, that man is born damned and that the only way to salvation is by believing in Jesus. They then claim that if someone believes in Jesus they will do good works. They go on to say that only those that believe in Jesus will be saved.When you point to believers though who do horrific things, their usual response seems to be "those were not true-christians". You point to non-believers who behave better than the Christians and they say "They are damned because they do not believe."I feel that is simply a copout.I do not believe that GOD creates damned people. A GOD that creates damned people and then tells them "Hey, believe in me and you will be saved" is no different than the warlord, cruel and evil. I agree. But they will not die because the warlord failed to provide food. They will also not have died because of their lack of belief in the warlord.You have argued in the past that Christianity provides a set of Moral guidelines that is not present in other groups such as Atheists.Let's work with that for a second and see what that means.I believe that each of us will be judged individually on what we do, what we fail to do and on what we might have done. GOD will judge each of us from Her base of Perfect Knowledge, She will know our limits and potentials, and we will not be able to stand there and say "That was too hard" or "That was beyond my capability". GOD will know.What this means is that a Christian will be judged to a higher standard than an Atheist. The Atheist may well be able to stand before GOD and say "I didn't now I was supposed to Love others as I love myself", but the Christian can't. We were given the manual.When Jesus threw the big fish fry by the sea, and it came time to party down, He didn't survey the crowd, all those who believe get fish and chips, the rest are on their own. Everyone was fed. We are told that the people came to hear Jesus, and that many were converted, but they ALL got fed.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

to which riVeRraT replied:

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This is where I don't agree. I am not saying I am right, or you are wrong, I am just not convinced that is the case.

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There could be a whole thread on that subject, but one thing that comes to mind is that I am not even convinced that there can be such a thing as an atheist. It is alos possible that God does indeed put His laws on our hearts and minds, and to deny them, is a knowing thing, judgable by the same standard for all.

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I'm not at all sure what it is you disagree with. Can you try again to explain to me what it is specifically?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I still don't have a clue what it is you are disagreeing with. Can you try again to explain your point?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I believe that no one starts out damned, we all start out saved and I believe that every person will be judged based on what they did during their lives, that that judgement will be made with perfect knowledge of their acts, the things they did not do but might have, their personal capabilities, their intent and as an individual.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I really don't know so as I say in the sub-title, this is just a WAG.My guess is that more people that don't think they will go to heaven will go, and that many who think they are headed that way will be surprised to find that either they are turned away at the door, or allowed in under sanction and probation.Since there are more non-believers than believers, then I guess when we look at the population as a whole, I would say I imagine more folk will go to heaven than not.I think this is an important point and may help explain why some Christians seem so terrified by my position. The ones here who seem to be the most prolific responders and critics of the positions that I (and quite a few others here at EvC I must add) hold, is the lack of surety. I believe every person will be judged individually and against their individual standard. Did we really try to do what is right, did we honestly acknowledge when we screwed up and really try to do better, did we really try as hard as we could or did we try to get by with just token effort? Frankly, IMHO none of us will know the answer to that until we are judged.Surety can be comforting, like an old pair of sneakers or Bruin that I dragged around until his feet wore out and mom had to sew leather pads on his paws. It is warm and protective. But I don't think that was what Jesus ever offered. It's hard trying to do what's right, particularly in those instances where we have to make decisions without perfect knowledge, hell, usually with only very imperfect knowledge. Yet that is what we are called to do, to try to do our best.That is not a soft and fluffy position.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion