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Author
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Topic: Jar's belief statement- Part 2
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 12 of 250 (333266)
07-19-2006 10:12 AM
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Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
07-19-2006 5:40 AM
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Consider the alternatives
When I look at this discussion between "liberal" and "conservative" Christianity I always look at it boiling down to the context of an evangelist. We Christians are our own Gods best (or worst) advertisment. One of us may in fact have the "proper" belief as defined by God Himself...if that is possible YET by the way we behave we trash the truths that we believe. I could patiently explain my beliefs to everyone until the cows (the sacred ones) come home, but in the end, folks on EvC are only going to size me up based on how I respond to their posts, how I talk, what I talk about, and how my temperment appears online. I may not have embraced as much of Jars beliefs as I have yours, Faith, but I certainly feel the warmth and honesty in how Jar tells his stories and it is because of THAT that I am drawn towards the Spirit. (I then direct any further questions towards God Himself) As for you, Faith, I have seen the good in you expressed rather well...you know your Bible better all the time...but I have also seen some vindicative and hateful things expressed through your online person. (Please don't misunderstand...Im not attacking you...I'm just being honest) In the end, I am convinced that we are not in some sort of competition for souls here at EvC. God Himself draws ALL unto Himself. Thats MY two cents worth! And without attacking my character BUT by being honest, do you think that many of MY beliefs are too liberal? The reason that I ask is because IF they are, that is something that God will have to either commend or convict me of, depending on how Liberal or how Conservative He is. I see traits of both extremes in Him. Edited by Phat, : hide content due to character flaws of myself
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 5:40 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 14 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 11:50 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 33 of 250 (333668)
07-20-2006 9:25 AM
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Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
07-20-2006 7:48 AM
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Re: There is only one moral direction of the answer
Faith writes: Remember how it is worded, the people were "near starving," and the warlord COULD have fed them all. The kid's conclusion is that he should have fed them all, "not just those that believed in him." What other conclusion can one come to really? well....lets see...a group of church kids are being taught about the character of God.
NIV writes: Matt 5:45-48--(Jesus speaking)He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. Phat writes: sounds like all get the rain! If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Perhaps the kids were being shown that by extension they themselves were the representatives of the WarLord and should treat all people according to how they wished to be treated! Are we Christians not supposed to greet and treat all people the same, or do we just say "brother" or "sister" to the ones who attend our church?
Faith writes: Again, this is a completely false representation of the Biblical God, who is described in the Bible as merciful to all, as taking care of all Not if someone takes the Bible out of context. How do people learn who the character of God is? 1) By reading the Bible or 2) By observing the character of the heirs of the "warlord"? lets not forget that there are many scriptures.....
NIV writes: Matt 5:7-- Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Perhaps the children were being taught what type of heir they should behave as. Perhaps the context of the story was that if, in fact, we all are potential heirs of the promise that we should "go and do likewise." If someone read the Old Testament, they may well conclude that God is a WarLord.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 26 by Faith, posted 07-20-2006 7:48 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 35 of 250 (333676)
07-20-2006 9:48 AM
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Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
07-20-2006 9:35 AM
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Re: There is only one moral direction of the answer
Faith writes: Jar can believe what he wants and so can you. What we are discussing is this story, which gives a highly negative view of the Biblical Christian God and forces anyone not willing to question the story itself to the view of God that jar has had ever since. Im quite sure that the interpretation of the story is up to the individual who reads the story. You may say that the story gives a highly negative view of the Christian God and Jar may not. Jar can believe what he wants and so can you. We are in a Forum, for Heavens sake and communication is what we do! Is it better that we all be agreeable or is it better that we all tell our stories and allow others to interpret them as they wish?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 34 by Faith, posted 07-20-2006 9:35 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 39 by Faith, posted 07-20-2006 10:05 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 37 of 250 (333682)
07-20-2006 9:58 AM
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Reply to: Message 36 by PaulK
07-20-2006 9:48 AM
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Re: There is only one moral direction of the answer
There are many interpreatations and philosophical offshoots involved in a discussion.
jar writes: In conclusion, there is definitely more than one conclusion to most problems posed in life and especially this one in particular. Not everything is as black and white as you believe it to be. Perhaps we should consider many modern day churches who only feed people who are members of the church. Among other things....
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 36 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2006 9:48 AM | | PaulK has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 40 of 250 (333688)
07-20-2006 10:08 AM
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Reply to: Message 38 by Faith
07-20-2006 9:59 AM
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Re: There is only one moral direction of the answer
Faith writes: The story leads in one direction only, a particular ugly view of God that anyone would reject, and that fact alone disproves jar's claim that he was led to think it through. Jar was in a particular setting, as a boy, being taught whatever it was that Joe wanted to convey to him. We are in a vastly different setting---a forum---where ideas are discussed in context. Let me ask this: What does everyone think of this scripture?
NIV writes: 2 Peter 1:20-21--Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. Does this not mean that no interpretation of a parable or of a scripture, even, is the exclusive property of the Pastor or teacher who speaks it? Are not ideas mean't to be challenged and questioned? Im just saying that there may well be One moral direction that all follow, but all of us must figure it out for ourselves and not be led by human interpretation---without question.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 38 by Faith, posted 07-20-2006 9:59 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 42 by Faith, posted 07-20-2006 10:16 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 41 of 250 (333691)
07-20-2006 10:13 AM
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Reply to: Message 39 by Faith
07-20-2006 10:05 AM
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Re: There is only one moral direction of the answer
Faith writes: The whole point is that jar concluded that the warlord was wrong, and what I'm saying is that there is no other reasonable conclusion from it given the premises the story presents And what I'm saying is that neither you nor I were sitting there sipping Nehi soda with Jar, so we can't conclude that the motive of the storyteller was written in stone. Assuming we were there, however, we would be influenced by Joe, the teacher.
Jar writes: I asked Joe what I should think, and he told me right away that only I could decide that. Even if I decided not to get confirmed, I was growing up and so it was time I started deciding what I was going to do and believe, and not have others decide it for me. My point is that there is not only one possible conclusion that the parable teaches, IMHO.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 39 by Faith, posted 07-20-2006 10:05 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 43 by Faith, posted 07-20-2006 10:20 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 71 of 250 (333767)
07-20-2006 3:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
07-20-2006 12:05 PM
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Re: There is only one moral direction of the answer
So are you saying that Jar was not given the option to think about the type of God that you were taught about, due to the story given to him as a child? OK... I was taught almost the same way that you were, Faith....except that my church did'nt teach literalism to the point of creationism as an important tenet of the faith. I questioned what I had been taught---and I still question not only your Christian value system, but Jars, Ringos, RiverRats, and any other that I am presented.
Faith writes: Oh I know he has a good reason for not saving everyone, but I don't know the reason except that in the end I will know it was necessary and good. Sounds to me that you just can't accept the idea that ALL people get saved! I can accept it---but I'm not sure I believe it. For all I know I may be one of the ones who won't get saved. Of course, I was taught that by confessing with my mouth and believing with my heart I was saved, but if I---a mere human---can have compassion enough to worry about people who have not done so, why would God be any less benevolant? It boils down to this: 1) One side says that only those who confess and accept correctly will be saved...regardless of behavior. 2) The other side says that only those who behave correctly will be saved....regardless of profession and confession. Am I getting that right? 
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 61 by Faith, posted 07-20-2006 12:05 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 72 by Asgara, posted 07-20-2006 3:39 PM | | Phat has not replied | | | Message 74 by Faith, posted 07-20-2006 3:51 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 73 of 250 (333771)
07-20-2006 3:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 62 by jar
07-20-2006 12:07 PM
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In a nutshell....
repeating and elaborating on what I asked Faith in the post above this one: DOES THIS SOUND RIGHT? 1) One side believes that God saves those who trust Him and lets the rest perish. The people are saved through grace alone by faith alone. Profession and trust count while behavior is not important, (but will automatically improve due to the Holy Spirit) 2) Your take is that God already saved everyone. Behavior is important, and, since we were given a mind, WE are responsible for our actions. No devil makes us spew out hateful words. No devil made us kill and eat 30 children. (But oddly, a devil surely must have been in the terrorists who so boldly killed our 3000 people...yet no same such devil exists in our troops who have killed many more than that) Not to get too far off topic, though. Can you help me sum up the difference between fundamentalist theology and conservative Episcopal theology?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 62 by jar, posted 07-20-2006 12:07 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 75 by jar, posted 07-20-2006 4:13 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 86 of 250 (335556)
07-26-2006 6:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 85 by jar
07-26-2006 5:15 PM
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Re: In a nutshell....
I think I know where the Rat is coming from. He believes that everyone is intrinsically aware of the standards whether they are believers or not. (Romans 1:1-18) Thus, everyone will be judged equally. You on the other hand, are pointing out that those of us who have had Bible class and understand the ideas put forth by Jesus Christ will be judged on a higher standard. (To whom much is given, much is required)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 85 by jar, posted 07-26-2006 5:15 PM | | jar has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 87 of 250 (335558)
07-26-2006 7:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 83 by riVeRraT
07-26-2006 4:51 PM
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Re: In a nutshell....
RiverRat writes: If it is possible that God's laws are really inside all of us, then we all know Him, whether we profess it with our mouths or not. I guess that is where the judging based on what we know comes into play. But I don't think there is a single person on this planet that can say who is going to hell or not. Hell is one of those vague concepts that elicits much controversy. I dont believe that Hell, if it exists, was intended for humans. It was intended for the very spirits of rebellion who deny God at every opportunity and seek glory and honor for themselves. Humans would end up in Hell by continually and repeatedly denying the still small voice within them which tells them what they should do rather than what they "feel like" doing or what seems easiest. It is a lot easier for me, for example, to place the blame for my job troubles on a wealthy C.E.O. or an eager immigrant who wants to work cheaply than it is for me to take responsibility for my own attitude on a daily basis. Rat, if you are right in that IF we all intrinsically know of the existence of a higher power--if not personally--we all then have the capability to choose the best decision in each instance of our life where a decision presents itself. Christians could arguably be held to a higher standard only because they themselves have created a higher standard and will be judged as they so judge,
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 83 by riVeRraT, posted 07-26-2006 4:51 PM | | riVeRraT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 90 by riVeRraT, posted 07-28-2006 6:12 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 88 of 250 (335561)
07-26-2006 7:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 81 by jar
07-26-2006 10:34 AM
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Re: In a nutshell....
Jar writes: I do not believe that GOD creates damned people. A GOD that creates damned people and then tells them "Hey, believe in me and you will be saved" is no different than the warlord, cruel and evil. True. And a God who created "saved" people would mean that the whole concept of Hell and eternal judgement would be just plain silly. A wealthy man had a large inheritance. All of his children were automatically entitled to the inheritance at birth. The only provision that the father insisted his children follow was that they do the best that they could with their lives. There would be no free rides in this family, and the children knew what was expected of them. The wealthy man hired a judge to decide whether or not the heirs had lived up to their part of the bargain. Long after his death, the day arrived when each of the children would be judged according to their lives. (It may well have been a different day for each child or it may well have been one event...I do not know) The Father had also adopted other children without them knowing about it, and had placed them in the will as well. These other children did not know that it was expected of them to do their best in order to receive an inheritance. If you wre the judge, how would you judge each child? Would you judge them based on what they knew, how they behaved, or what they thought? Would you judge them based on tallying up good deeds and weighing them against bad deeds? Would you give the adopted children a break?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 81 by jar, posted 07-26-2006 10:34 AM | | jar has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 89 by ringo, posted 07-26-2006 11:20 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 201 of 250 (338694)
08-09-2006 9:23 AM
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Reply to: Message 196 by nator
08-09-2006 7:34 AM
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Re: What is sin?
I can understand the logic of your position, Schraff, and I dont ascribe to the Devil made them do it excuse any more than you do. I have seen evidence of the supernatural that settled the issue in my mind, and I will say that there is a world of difference between a passionate evangelical event in the Phillipines or so other remote place that involves spiritual manifestations and unexplainable phenomena versus James Randi versus Peter Popoff! I am as convinced that there is a spiritual reality perhaps as much as you are convinced that there is not. I fully expect to be challenged on my position, however---and promise not to manifest should you call me out!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 196 by nator, posted 08-09-2006 7:34 AM | | nator has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 203 by ringo, posted 08-09-2006 11:53 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 222 of 250 (339025)
08-10-2006 5:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 213 by nator
08-09-2006 7:06 PM
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Experiencing the Woo Woo
You and I are opposites concerning the woo-woo phenomenon. Can we conclude that there are no legitamete mysteries in life that science cannot explain? To you, it is a challenge, for it verifies your own self control. I need self control as well, yet always await a parental figure (such as God) to step in and help me. Perhaps many charismatic Christians are immature.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 213 by nator, posted 08-09-2006 7:06 PM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 225 by ringo, posted 08-10-2006 6:28 PM | | Phat has not replied | | | Message 240 by nator, posted 08-10-2006 8:02 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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