I want to be convinced - an experiment

Pray pray pray. Stop reading books! you will be a nilhlist before it is all over LOL!!!

I've tried to pray, but I'm stuck in a vicous circle! Need to pray to get faith, need faith in order to pray! Seriously, I do try to pray sometimes, but it doesn't feel quite right yet. Bad connection I guess. Hey, I just noticed you're from Texas! I'm traveling to Texas on April 24 and staying till May 8. I'll be staying in and around Livingston. I'm going to Texas mainly to visit a friend on Death Row, but me and my dad will also be doing some traveling.[This message has been edited by Sarde, 03-05-2004]

Hi Sarde,
I hope you enjoy your visit to Texas, April is a beautiful time of year here, lot of wild flowers in bloom. Perhaps they will brighten your day and remind you of how great it is to be alive to pounder god regardless of how one worships or doesnt worship.
Texas flowers
*edit to include photo of flowers[This message has been edited by 1.61803, 03-05-2004]

Sarde,You note, Why? What is it about "Christianity" that appeals to you?And,What is a process in the past, that has convinced you of anything? What, or who, do you trust, to get you closer to the truth?Mere Christianity by Lewis, which I have read from other posts you are reading, ought to be very helpful. Bring any questions it may raise in your mind here for discussion.The web sites you have posted are for those who choose reason alone as their means of knowing, not fearing the danger of seduction from evil, or of rationalization. Remember that while all that is true is reasonable, not all that is reasonable is true. There are better ways of knowing, that use reason but not reason alone.Stephen

Texas Blue Bonnets, aren't they?

Perhaps a better question would be "What is is about Christ that appeals to you?". Since 'Christianity', as a community, movement, whatever does not appeal to me at all. I don't think I'd ever join a church. But it's hard to say really. I've tried another spiritual path before and that wasn't 'it'. I envy people who have strong faith. I am convinced that there is a God and I am looking to find the best way to Him... It is not 'happiness' that I seek, for I am quite happy even without a religion. I want truth, and perhaps I think that there might be truth in Christ. I will be sure to do that. I am immensely enjoying the book and as of yet have not come across anything I cannot agree with. And I don't think it is reason alone that I use for guidance. Why would I want to be convinced of the truth of Christianity if not for some feeling, some hunch. It is reason that tends to get in my way, but I can't switch my ratio off. I sometimes find myself wishing that I could. If all that is true is reasonable, then there must be someone who can present the Truth to me in a reasonable enough way as for it to be convincing. I really like that quote "All that is true is reasonable, but not all that is reasonable is true". Is it your own or did you take it from somewhere?My thoughts go like this: "There have been many great scholars, great thinkers, who have believed in Christ. They must have asked the same questions that I am now asking. They must have found satisfying answers to those questions. Hence, it is possible to find satisfying answers to my doubts."

Sarde~Please read ALL of this thoroughly... it is as thoughtful and insightful as I have ever written (I know you are having trouble with Christianity and its teachings versus the rest of the world... I was once the same)Firstly, the Bible says, in John Chapter seven, that God is a Spirit and those that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Also, Jesus said, in John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man commeth unto the Father but by me."The Bible also says that All those who call upon the Lord will be saved (Romans 10:13)
Furthermore, Romans 3:23 says "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God..." and Romans 6:23 says "the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Now then, what the Bible is saying is that the only way to get into heaven is to trust Jesus and devote your life to him. Romans 10:9 says "if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." All this adds up to the principle that if we pray to Jesus, confessing our sins and wrongdoings and believe in the resurrection, then we may be saved. (Saved implies eternal life... walking with God in Paradise).I have gone through so many doubts as you have. In fact, i used to be so torn between atheism, evolutionism, Christianity, and ridicule from the two former types of people that depression led me to contemplating suicide. I gave my life to Christ and it has made a major turnaround (I have gone through so much turmoil and distress that i thought NOTHING could help me... i felt like i was lost in the middle of nowhere among feelings of worthlessness and now I feel revitalized 100%).
Matthew chapter 19 tells us that anybody who forfeits earthly treasure and wealth, land, or family members for Jesus' sake (for the sake of living a Christian life) then he/she will be repayed a hundredfold in the kingdom of heaven (verse 29).Now this all sounds good and everything, right? What about if what Jesus is saying is wrong? first off, when Jesus was talking to his disciples in Matthew chapter 24 verse 35 he said: "heaven and earth shall pass but my words shall not pass away." Now, Jesus was born in a barn in the small town of Bethlehem in Israel over 2000 years ago... he was only 33 when he died and he was executed--he died a criminal's death. furthermore, he was a carpenter and not known by the pharisees (Jewish leaders) to be an authority figure. However, if Jesus was a Jewish carpenter who was executed at the age of 33 and never held a seat of political authority and never wrote a book, how is it that his words could never be forgotten?
--Bear with me: the mere fact that the Bible is the most prevalent book in the history of the world is a fulfillment of the prophesy that Jesus' words would never be forgotten. If Jesus was not wealthy, not politically powerful, a carpenter with no formal education, and a 33-year-old martyr, doesn't it seem bizarre that HE above all people has made a bigger impact on the world than anybody else in history? Christianity is the largest religion in the world. The Bible is the most-printed book (with over 6 billion copies of the Christian Bible in print). Also, Jesus never wrote a book, yet the books written ABOUT him total more than all other books in the world combined. Jesus never composed a song, yet the music devoted to him add up to more than all other songs put together. Jesus was killed at the age of 33, as i've said earlier, yet his legacy lives on as the man who changed the world through peaceful preaching to the people around him. Sound compelling?Furthermore... the Old Testament (All of it written more than 400 years before Christ's birth) contains over 120 prophecies concerning who the coming Messiah will be. Such prophecies include:The lineage of the Messiah was prophesied in Genesis 3:15/9:26/22:18/26:4 and 49:10 and in II Samuel 7:12-16. His birth from a virgin woman was prophesied in Isaiah 7:14. The prophecy that Jesus was to be born in Bethlehem is given in Micah 5:2. The prophecy regarding his forerunner, John the Baptist, was given in Isaiah 40:3 and Malachi 3:1. Aspects of the teachings and healings of the Messaiah's ministry are given in Isaiah 61:1-2, Isaiah 42:1-4, Isaiah 9:1-2, and Psalm 40:7-10. "Palm Sunday"--the Messiah's entry into Jerusalem upon an ass was foretold in Zechariah 9:9-10, the prophecy regarding the rejection of the Messiah's coming is foretold in Psalm 118:22-24.
Now then, the original Old Testament books that prophesied all this were written NO LATER than the fifth century B.C. And, according to what was written about his life in the New Testament and in the gospel accounts given by the followers of Jesus, Jesus Christ is the only man in history to fit all of the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah. Therefore, there are only two options: (1) Either the entire New Testament was fabricated to be a deliberate scam for the purpose of convincing the world a lie that Jesus was the Messiah (HIGHLY unlikely since every story in the entire New Testament is in perfect harmony with one another even though the New Testament was written by at least seven different people over a period of a half-century) OR (2) Jesus truly is the Messiah. If you believe the latter, then please, don't waste another minute: if you die tomorrow, and you stand before God and he asks why he should let you into heaven, what would you tell him?I personally would tell him that I had given my life to his son Jesus for the sake of serving God's will and that by faith I was saved and accounted for by Jesus' blood that was used to cleanse me of my sins. The Bible says, in I Timothy 2:3-4 that God WANTS all men to be saved, but that can only happen if all men confess their sins and CHOOSE to be saved (God promised that salvation is a choice, not an indoctrination, which is WHY people don't understand why a loving God allows death... it's because of Sin on man's behalf).Now then, in regards to the anti-Christian websites out there, there are and always have been people who hate Christians. The Bible also says, in II Peter chapter 3, that in the last days (the future) there would come scoffers (mockers) of the Bible, who are walking after their own lusts and saying "all things have continued as they were from the beginning..." Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is almost and EXACT definition of uniformitarianism. You see, the Old Testament foretold the coming of Jesus as the Messiah before Jesus was ever born. Likewise, the New Testament FORETOLD the coming of people who mock and hate Christianity. It's all there for a reason--Matthew chapter 5 says that: "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God... Blessed are the which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven... Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you and persecute you and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake."You see, Jesus BLESSES people who are persecuted and ridiculed for his sake (which is why I don't mind getting insulted and persecuted because of my faith--because I know that Jesus is coming back for me).Sarde, I thank you for taking the time to read this, and i hope it helps. I leave you with one final thought, the Bible says that we walk by faith not by sight (that means that we must humble ourselves and become like little children, who trust without seeing). In other words, don't worry about the anti-Christian world that is attacking us relentlessly, for our faith (not sight of "evidence") is what will see us through it all.If you would like to talk to me for any reason, my email address is:swordsman_75@hotmail.comThanks again,
and I pray for you.--ServantP.S. This message is for Sarde and I am NOT open to discussing this information with ANYBODY but her (unless somebody out there finds that he/she has the same issue concerning faith as she does). So, if you have a comment or a criticism, keep it to yourself or take it somewhere else, thanks.

Just an aside...It's funny, but I had the exact opposite experience as you. As a Christian I was depressed and despondent, but what turned it around for me was atheism. Now I'm a happy, well-adjusted, and married man.Thanks, atheism!Just thought it was interesting how opposite we are, that's all. Glad Jesus worked out for you, though.

Gosh, I keep forgetting how different my mindset is from Christianity around me. I forget to make one really major issue clear.I don't believe the faith of Christ has a whole heck of a lot to do with individuals. It does have to do with individuals, but the message of Christ and of the apostles has the purpose of creating the church, which is Yeshua's body and the dwelling place of God. Without a people, a society, then the things Yeshua himself listed as proof of his ministry become impossible. His proofs were that his disciples would be known by their love for one another and that his own messiahship would be known by the unity of the disciples that would be as great as the unity he had with his Father (Jn 17:20-23).If you're looking for something to fulfill your life better as a person, then I recommend trying everything and sticking with whatever works for you. I don't think Christianity has worked very well for too many people.I thought you were asking why the message of Christ might be true, and so my answer reflected that. Yeshua isn't interested in improving your life. He's interested in ending your life and making you part of his, and his attention is to his bride, the church.

Sarde,You say, which clearly answers my first question. Now, it is written in scripture that "faith comes from hearing, and hearing from the spoken (not read) word of God." Your hunger for faith is a validation of another scriptural comment, made by Yeshua, that "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." Those words, so it is promised, produce faith. As humans, we are supposed have an appetite for hearing God and having faith.To be reasonable about this, sapienistic I like to say, our first task is to understand what faith is, to get the word defined. An early definition of faith is "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence (confidence, realization) of things not seen." This conflicts seriously with the usual, modern definition of faith, which says that faith is certainty of belief without any evidence or support. Something achieved purely by choice and strength of will. Which do you want? Which are you hungry for?Note that I am not asking you to have "faith" in the scriptures, only reminding you of what they say, as an early effort to talk about these things. If the faith you want is the sort described in the bible (old definition), that book suggests that you will find this by hearing God speak to you. This is something you can try to experience. Do you want to try this? What do you think would be a reasonable approach? Feel free to use your imagination here. You are only setting up an experiment, to see what happens.I'll answer your other questions later. Thank you for such a thoughful and encouraging response.Stephen

my personal way of lookin at that issue, is that "bad things" (i use the inverted comma's because what may seem bad at first, may turn out to be something good in the long-run) are a challenge, in a sense, to a person - and he/she can then go about coping with the challenge in differnt ways.. and this is where jihad comes in - u struggle to do the right thing.. and if u do overcome the challenge, u come out a stronger person than u would have been without the "bad thing" happening to u.. as regards why "good things" happen to bad people, well, u could say that's a challenge for them (by the way, i dont think there are such things as good people and bad people.. there's good in all of us and there's bad in all of us - fair enough, some people show more good than others - but it doesnt mean that they'll be good for ever.. same goes for people who show more bad) - they could use the "good thing" (eg money) for right (eg charity) or wrong (eg drugs or something) yeah, that thought disturbed me for quite a bit - but one way of looking at it is.. if someone never believed in the idea of heaven, why should they be allowed in? "but what about people who never got the chance to experience religion (due to upbringing, say)" - well, God knows best and he'll decide on their fate.. as Muslims, we're told to spread the word of our religion to people (strictly by peaceful means - "There is no compulsion in religion" [Koran 2:256]) and whether a person choses to believe us or not, is a matter entirely up to them.. (and of course, "Come to Islam or else you'll be miserable after u die" is hardly sufficient on our part..) interesting.. yeah, i like your honesty and dont blame you one bit for that thought - i'd rather not get into the whole media and politics thing but to answer the thing on "extremist Muslim terrorism", it has just as much to do with Islam as the murder of 6 million Jews in the second world war had to do with Christianity...oh, and u were spot on with the jihad thing at the end

Its none of our buissness, I know, but I did a double take when I read it.That must be a very difficult sittuation.

Me too Yaro, I had to resist like hell asking. It is just something you do not hear everyday.

Hello, Sarde. I think that it is a great thing for you to want to be a teacher. Teachers have to know both sides of an argument as well as the best way to present it to their students. I think that all youth should be taught the basics of philosophy, theology, science, and logic. I am a Christian believer. I believe in a personal God manifested through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God is real. After reading both of the websites that you presented to me, I have these comments:
On one side, we have the Biblical Inerrency argument. One side claims that the Bible is inspired by God. Although written by humans, the spirit and personality of the book is very much God.
This side has no defineable proof, other than the changed lives and the overall personalities of the believers. The other side, articulate and bright as they are, has presented a united front of scholarly opposition to the Bible as a serious work of literature, let alone truth. This side has quite a few "facts" although I would question why these facts are presented as such when none of these critics present any case for changed lives or humble and loving personalities. Rather, these scholars present us with the human educated mind as a triumphant force that is free and unshackled from religious restraints imposed by dogma. Paul N. Tobin, the author of the second website which you mention, is an avowed atheist. I guess that the point that I want you to consider is this: Lets take two imaginary characters.
Character number one is an uneducated Mother. She raises her kids on love and discipline. She does not know much in the way of science, law, or classical literature. she is a firm believer in God, however. Despite her many human faults, she is able to show her kids an inner character that is humble, Christ loving, fair, and humerous. Her kids grow up respecting her.
Character number two is a brilliant teacher. Well educated and opinionated. This teacher is driven by a love of the truth. She wants her students to see through all of the hypocrisy and prejudice of history. She has read all of the arguments. All of the articles for and against. She wants her students to know the truth! I ask you, Sarde. What is the truth? Is it the love of Christ in the Mom? Or is it the love of wisdom in the teacher? Which one of these two woman are the most important and influential in the lives of the kids, if they had one as a mother and one as a teacher? One more thought. Should these woman be at odds with one another?

Sarde,Back to your post. You say, Do you have any recollection of how you came to be convinced? There is a state of being called being "epistemologically self-conscious" in which you know the process that convinces you. Knowing this helps you deal with confusing issues, seduction, and self-deception. How are you defining truth? And again, what is it about truth that makes it attractive? Very good reasoning about reason. The trick is to keep reason in its place, and ignore it when it is out of place. In science, reasoning mainly belongs in the process of making predictions from hypotheses. It is not much good "explaining away" troublesome data, or justifying the ignoring of unfamiliar, unreasonable, hypotheses.It is reasonable, though, to consider the history of science, in deciding where reasoning is useful and where it is not. Quantum mechanics, for example, came into being when physicists made a quite unreasonable hypothesis. They reasoned from this unreasonable hypothesis, and got predictions that were confirmed. But, even today, nobody is quite willing to say that they understand quantum mechanics. They understand the reasoning from the queer assumptions, but why those assumptions? Except that they work, so now it is reasonable to make them. But, that fact was not present when the assumptions were first made.Now, "reason that tends to get in my way" means that you are going somewhere. Do you know where that is? To the truth? To assurance?If we stay at this, I accept your challenge of making anything that might be true, reasonable. But, there's a process for that, and often, we will have to reason with some idea that is not itself very reasonable, to get to understanding it. I'm not sure. If I had to guess, I would say that God told that to me. Very reasonable! In applied epistemology, using trusted authorities to get ideas worth thinking about is highly recommended. You need to decide what makes a scholar "great," and what makes an authority trustworthy. And, heed the classic warning: authority is great for setting priorities for intellectual effort, but quite undependable for deciding what to believe.One last question: given some idea, that you wish to evaluate for truth content, have you chosen to be comfortable with and accept the concept of plausibility? Or, do you insist on a black or white conclusion?The hope that "the truth will set you free." makes it a very attractive goal.Stephen