I want to be convinced - an experiment

To all Christians,I would like to be convinced of Christianity. I have been studying it extensively and I am certainly attracted to Christianity. I was about to be converted when I came across the following two sites:http://www.geocities.com/rightsman1/god_the_evidence.htmlhttp://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/index.htmlThese sites, and especially the latter, convinced me that Christianity cannot be true (or at least not entirely true). Praying hasn't been very helpful until now.I am a person who will only be convinced by facts and convincing argumentations. Is there a person out here who can refute the information on the above pages, especially the latter?Please be aware that my eternal well-being is at stake here. I do not want to do the Pascal's Wager thing. I want to believe in God because He exists, not because He is the best bet.PS: I am only half sarcastic. I truly would like to be a believer but have found it impossible.[This message has been edited by Sarde, 03-04-2004][This message has been edited by Sarde, 03-04-2004]

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"Keep the company of those who seek the truth, but run from those who have found it." (Vaclav Havel)

Dear 1.61803 (why that name, if I may ask?),First of all, I'd like to state that I am not a dude but a girl. I have not made my decision. There would be no use for this thread whatsoever if I had.I am well aware that no Christian can offer me absolute evidence. I do not ask for absolute evidence. My request is quite humble really: I am looking for evidence that the sources that tell us about Jesus are reliable. If that is too much to ask, then yes, my decision will be made easy. Is it unreasonable if I want to know whether the Gospels are a reliable source of information? I think this question is of the utmost importance to all Christians, or at least it should be. Because if the Gospels themselves are not reliable (as the website 'Rejection of Pascal's wager very convincingly states), then your faith and belief rests on quicksand...I want to make an informed decision, that's all. If I am supposed to have faith in Jesus on the basis of possibly unreliable texts about him, I might as well have faith in the person who made the website on which she states that God is an Invisible Pink Unicorn.Sarde

Chiroptera,I think I am in the same kind of boat as you were. I am not being sarcastic in my first post when I state that I was about to be converted when I came across the 'Rejection of Pascal's Wager' site. I wanted to be converted, I wanted to believe but I could not. I just don't want to give up so quickly. But you are right that it isn't really a choice. No matter how much I may want to believe; if I cannot be convinced that the Gospels are reliable and that all of those things really did happen to Jesus, then I won't be able to believe...Sarde

First of all, truthlover, I thank you for having a little more faith (be it in me or in Jesus) than 1.6something (I can't remember a number!).In order to believe in this power of Paul (after all, he did not demonstrate whatever power he may have had in front of my face), I will first have to believe that what he tells me is reliable information. I must admit to you that I have my doubts about Paul. I always have had, he seems to me to say things that aren't in line with the teachings of Jesus. Jesus' brother James seems to have thought the same, see the website 'Rejection of Pascal's Wager', section 'Paul and Christian Origins'.

The most important question to me, as I have indicated above, is the question of the reliability of the Gospels and the rest of the NT. Me neither. I sure hope God wasn't really telling Moses to kill off women and children... But anyway, no, I'd never be a Bible literalist and I don't think one needs to be in order to be a Christian. I am interested in the core message of the Bible. I also attach much more importance to the NT than I do to the OT, which I think contains a whole lot of myths. 'Rejection of Pascal's Wager'? No, that's not his main point. I would ask you to read specifically the sections 'Jesus' and 'Paul and Christian Origins'. They are the ones that cause me most trouble because they convincingly state that the NT is very unreliable at best. But people of other religions have the same sort of experience (btw: I believe that all religions worship one and the same God and that all religions can lead one to God, provided that God exists), hence I would not accept this as convincing proof of the truth of Christianity. A big problem to me as well, is that Christianity claims that it's 'the only way'. I simply do not buy this and I do have a reasoning as to why I think it is not so. I will elaborate if you ask me to. A very refreshing opinion from a believer and one that I wholeheartedly agree with. I have had more than my share of bigotry, judgmentalism etc. from people who call themselves Christians... Well spoken and food for thought.

And like I have said, I do not ask for certain proof. Look, here's what my thoughts are: I definitely believe Jesus walked this earth. I definitely believe amazing things happened. I believe he was crucified. But: it seems to me that the 'historical Christ' and the 'Christ fulfilling the OT prophecies' got mixed in together. In other words, it seems to me that the story about Christ was adapted to fit the prophecies of the OT and the beliefs of the early Christians... Is it unreasonable if I say that this is not proof to me? People of other religions have done the same. I cannot verify that someone has 'received the Spirit of God'. Perhaps there are other people on this site who know more about these sort of things...? I'm not too familiar with this passage, but does it say that the pigs drowned in the Sea of Galilee? Couldn't there have been a lake or something? But not everything is of equal importance to me. I have indicated above which things are. Also, someone on a Dutch site where I have a similar topic going referred me to tektonics.org. Anyone any comments on that website? Have only taken a quick look at it as of yet.

You are right. I guess that's just not what I was getting out of the website. So I was the one who made the mistake. I'm not sure that you understand what I mean. All that you say is definitely true. 'Christianity' as a whole seems pretty corrupted to me, especially in the US. But what I said is in reference to the Gospels. What if Jesus did walk the earth, performed some miracles and then died. But, because the prophecy had to be fulfilled, they thought uo his resurrection and this story was put into the Gospels. I find it quite a bit annoying to read every pther sentence: "Amd the Lord did this so that this-and-this prophecy was fulfilled". I'm sure Jesus' goal in coming to the world was not to fulfill prophecies...The other things you have said about prophecies are very interesting. I knew nothing about this. But I wonder if this 'Spirit' is exclusive to Christians. I have seen similar amazing things in people of other religions and even in people who adhere to no religion. For example, 'positive thinking', the Wayne Dyer approach, the Dr. Phil approach etc. all have the potency to transform people in a way similar to that which is witnessed in Christians.My tendency is to believe that being a Christian isn't so much about confessing one's sins and 'being covered with the blood of the Christ' as it is about following in the footsteps of Christ, following His example... Does that make any sense? This is why I also do not believe in the exclusivity of Christianity. True enough, Christ say: "No one goes to the Father except through Me", but perhaps someone could 'go through Christ' without even knowing Christ...? I think all those who choose God and thus goodness will come to God.I had a funny thought today. It is said that there is no suffering in Heaven. Now, it would make me very sad if some of my beloved atheist family members and friends would not make it into Heaven. Hence, they will go to Heaven.

Thanks for explaining the name. Don't worry, I wasn't offended when you called me 'dude'. It just reminded me that my sex isn't immediately evident from my nick. Doesn't really matter whether I am a male or a female. Yes, faith IS believing in the absence of evidence and facts. But in order to gain initial trust in Jesus Christ, isn't it only fair that I should want to know if the information I have on Him is at least somewhat reliable? I can't very well place my trust in someone if he might as well be a fairy tale...[This message has been edited by Sarde, 03-05-2004]

I used to be a Hare Krishna devotee. I lived in a Hare Krishna (a sect of Hinduism) temple as a 'nun' for two years. Their theology is very similar to that of Roman Catholicism, except that they believe in karma and rencarnation. I find it hard to let go of those concepts, since I have always seen them as the only way to explain why 'bad things happen to good people' (and vice versa). Also, I SO don't like the idea of an eternal hell (Hare Krishna beliefs include 'hellish planets', but one does not go there forever). If hell would be eternal, the punishment hardly seems to fit the crime. A friend of mine (who is a Roman Catholic) has the theory that heaven and hell are the same place. He thinks that those who hate God and thus hate truth, go to heaven, but will want out. If you hate truth, what could be worse than living in pure Truth? Sounds good to me... I do not know much about Islam, besides the obvious stuff of the Five Pillars and all that. I have read the Bible and the Bhagavad-gita, but not the Quran. I will be very honest with you and say that I haven't gotten a very positive impression of Islam, but I am probably heavily influenced by the media. I truly hope that 'extremist Muslim terrorism' has nothing to do with Islam. I was told at school that 'jihad' does not mean 'holy war' but the inner struggle to live according to God's wishes. Sounds a lot better.[This message has been edited by Sarde, 03-05-2004]

Truthlover, I really appreciate the fact that you are taking time to get into this evil-website-that's-keeping-me-away-from-Jesus. Seriously, thanks a lot for your time and effort! I'm not following all of this. I guess I'll have to get into the history of all the different texts a bit. This is not really a major 'flaw' is it? It sounds more like nitpicking to me. Could even have been a copyist error perhaps? I hadn't read this bit yet, so thanks for refuting it ahead of time. LOL. Thanks for having a sense of humor as well.

Truthlover, I'll get to your other posts at a later point in time. It may take me a while, since I have some busy days ahead of me! But again, thanks for putting in so much time for me!

Maybe you are right and then it is going to be a hard nut to crack. But it is the only way it would be possible for me to believe. Even if the Gospels AREN'T reliable, it would be enough if someone could convince me that they were. Seriously, I have an odd problem. I want to believe, but I can't. I am currently reading 'Mere Christianity' by C.S. Lewis, which has a very promising text on the back cover:"C.S. Lewis is the ideal persuader for the half-convinced, for the good man who would like to be a Christian but finds his intellect getting in the way"
(Anthony Burgess, NY Times Book Review)The book must have been written with me in mind. I only just started chapter two, but I must say that I like this book. It is brilliant in its simplicity.

I've tried to pray, but I'm stuck in a vicous circle! Need to pray to get faith, need faith in order to pray! Seriously, I do try to pray sometimes, but it doesn't feel quite right yet. Bad connection I guess. Hey, I just noticed you're from Texas! I'm traveling to Texas on April 24 and staying till May 8. I'll be staying in and around Livingston. I'm going to Texas mainly to visit a friend on Death Row, but me and my dad will also be doing some traveling.[This message has been edited by Sarde, 03-05-2004]

Texas Blue Bonnets, aren't they?

Perhaps a better question would be "What is is about Christ that appeals to you?". Since 'Christianity', as a community, movement, whatever does not appeal to me at all. I don't think I'd ever join a church. But it's hard to say really. I've tried another spiritual path before and that wasn't 'it'. I envy people who have strong faith. I am convinced that there is a God and I am looking to find the best way to Him... It is not 'happiness' that I seek, for I am quite happy even without a religion. I want truth, and perhaps I think that there might be truth in Christ. I will be sure to do that. I am immensely enjoying the book and as of yet have not come across anything I cannot agree with. And I don't think it is reason alone that I use for guidance. Why would I want to be convinced of the truth of Christianity if not for some feeling, some hunch. It is reason that tends to get in my way, but I can't switch my ratio off. I sometimes find myself wishing that I could. If all that is true is reasonable, then there must be someone who can present the Truth to me in a reasonable enough way as for it to be convincing. I really like that quote "All that is true is reasonable, but not all that is reasonable is true". Is it your own or did you take it from somewhere?My thoughts go like this: "There have been many great scholars, great thinkers, who have believed in Christ. They must have asked the same questions that I am now asking. They must have found satisfying answers to those questions. Hence, it is possible to find satisfying answers to my doubts."