Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,914 Year: 4,171/9,624 Month: 1,042/974 Week: 1/368 Day: 1/11 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   I want to be convinced - an experiment
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 183 (90718)
03-06-2004 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Sarde
03-04-2004 9:15 AM


Re: I want to believe but my mind's in the way
Sarde,
You note,
I would like to be convinced of Christianity.
Why? What is it about "Christianity" that appeals to you?
And,
What is a process in the past, that has convinced you of anything? What, or who, do you trust, to get you closer to the truth?
Mere Christianity by Lewis, which I have read from other posts you are reading, ought to be very helpful. Bring any questions it may raise in your mind here for discussion.
The web sites you have posted are for those who choose reason alone as their means of knowing, not fearing the danger of seduction from evil, or of rationalization. Remember that while all that is true is reasonable, not all that is reasonable is true. There are better ways of knowing, that use reason but not reason alone.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Sarde, posted 03-04-2004 9:15 AM Sarde has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Sarde, posted 03-06-2004 3:16 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 183 (90812)
03-06-2004 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Sarde
03-06-2004 3:16 AM


Re: Reason and reasons
Sarde,
You say,
I envy people who have strong faith.
which clearly answers my first question. Now, it is written in scripture that "faith comes from hearing, and hearing from the spoken (not read) word of God." Your hunger for faith is a validation of another scriptural comment, made by Yeshua, that "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." Those words, so it is promised, produce faith. As humans, we are supposed have an appetite for hearing God and having faith.
To be reasonable about this, sapienistic I like to say, our first task is to understand what faith is, to get the word defined. An early definition of faith is "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence (confidence, realization) of things not seen." This conflicts seriously with the usual, modern definition of faith, which says that faith is certainty of belief without any evidence or support. Something achieved purely by choice and strength of will. Which do you want? Which are you hungry for?
Note that I am not asking you to have "faith" in the scriptures, only reminding you of what they say, as an early effort to talk about these things. If the faith you want is the sort described in the bible (old definition), that book suggests that you will find this by hearing God speak to you. This is something you can try to experience. Do you want to try this? What do you think would be a reasonable approach? Feel free to use your imagination here. You are only setting up an experiment, to see what happens.
I'll answer your other questions later. Thank you for such a thoughful and encouraging response.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Sarde, posted 03-06-2004 3:16 AM Sarde has not replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 183 (90993)
03-07-2004 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Sarde
03-06-2004 3:16 AM


Re: Reason and reasons
Sarde,
Back to your post. You say,
I am convinced that there is a God
Do you have any recollection of how you came to be convinced? There is a state of being called being "epistemologically self-conscious" in which you know the process that convinces you. Knowing this helps you deal with confusing issues, seduction, and self-deception.
I want truth,
How are you defining truth? And again, what is it about truth that makes it attractive?
It is reason that tends to get in my way, but I can't switch my ratio off. I sometimes find myself wishing that I could. If all that is true is reasonable, then there must be someone who can present the Truth to me in a reasonable enough way as for it to be convincing.
Very good reasoning about reason. The trick is to keep reason in its place, and ignore it when it is out of place. In science, reasoning mainly belongs in the process of making predictions from hypotheses. It is not much good "explaining away" troublesome data, or justifying the ignoring of unfamiliar, unreasonable, hypotheses.
It is reasonable, though, to consider the history of science, in deciding where reasoning is useful and where it is not. Quantum mechanics, for example, came into being when physicists made a quite unreasonable hypothesis. They reasoned from this unreasonable hypothesis, and got predictions that were confirmed. But, even today, nobody is quite willing to say that they understand quantum mechanics. They understand the reasoning from the queer assumptions, but why those assumptions? Except that they work, so now it is reasonable to make them. But, that fact was not present when the assumptions were first made.
Now, "reason that tends to get in my way" means that you are going somewhere. Do you know where that is? To the truth? To assurance?
If we stay at this, I accept your challenge of making anything that might be true, reasonable. But, there's a process for that, and often, we will have to reason with some idea that is not itself very reasonable, to get to understanding it.
I really like that quote "All that is true is reasonable, but not all that is reasonable is true". Is it your own or did you take it from somewhere?
I'm not sure. If I had to guess, I would say that God told that to me.
My thoughts go like this: "There have been many great scholars, great thinkers, who have believed in Christ. They must have asked the same questions that I am now asking. They must have found satisfying answers to those questions. Hence, it is possible to find satisfying answers to my doubts."
Very reasonable! In applied epistemology, using trusted authorities to get ideas worth thinking about is highly recommended. You need to decide what makes a scholar "great," and what makes an authority trustworthy. And, heed the classic warning: authority is great for setting priorities for intellectual effort, but quite undependable for deciding what to believe.
One last question: given some idea, that you wish to evaluate for truth content, have you chosen to be comfortable with and accept the concept of plausibility? Or, do you insist on a black or white conclusion?
The hope that "the truth will set you free." makes it a very attractive goal.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Sarde, posted 03-06-2004 3:16 AM Sarde has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Shahzad, posted 03-07-2004 8:07 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has not replied
 Message 48 by Sarde, posted 03-08-2004 1:44 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 183 (91408)
03-09-2004 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Sarde
03-08-2004 1:44 AM


Re: re: Reason and Reasons
Sarde,
The way to faith in God can take the following steps, offered with "reasons."
1. Go to the most trusted authorities you can find, including some that you know personally. From them, find out what to think about. This is the beginning point, because your end point is walking in deep love with the ultimate trusted Authority/Father figure. If He is really out there, He will take your choice of beginning with an effort to find such trusted authorities in human form as evidence that you are sincere in your goal.
2. Go to inspired, inspiring, perservering art and literature, that quickens your heart regarding the ideas that your trusted authorities told you are important. These give you hope, and motivation to press through difficulties, to learn the truth.
3. Take these ideas, and seek out low-risk experiences that confirm them, or not. This is basically science, which deals with whatever original sense of plausibility the ideas might have in your heart, whatever subjectivity that you might have either for or against the ideas, and whatever confusion or lack of understanding you might have. Take the ideas, deduce reasonable predictions from them that might be tested with low cost, do the needed studies, and see what you get. Of course, read up what others have found. True ideas that seem implausible will generate new experiences, data, that persuade you of their truth. False ideas that seem plausible will generate new experiences, data, that persuade you to abandon them.
4. Any of the ideas that stand up to testing, start betting your life on them. This is basically doing high-risk experiments, and is known as generating history. Study the history of others, making similar choices. History of others making choices and experiencing their consequences are critical for you to start betting your life.
5. Pray listening prayers, hoping to hear the voice of God talking to you. In the end, faith comes from hearing, as a spiritual gift. If you have "bought the truth" as in steps 1-4, you will receive it as you seek to hear Him speak. Yeshua put it this way, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." Betting your life by becoming a disciple is expensive, as is abiding in His word, even experimentally. But, if you have "prepared the way of the Lord" (steps 1-4), you will be ready.
A costly and rewarding process.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Sarde, posted 03-08-2004 1:44 AM Sarde has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Sarde, posted 03-10-2004 1:28 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 183 (91637)
03-10-2004 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Sarde
03-10-2004 1:28 AM


Re: Reason and Reasons
Sarde,
You ask,
How about if I come across something, in the Bible or other Christian literature, that, instead of quickening my heart and giving me hope, totally annoys me and makes me want to turn around and go some place else.
The pejorative status of subjectivity in truth seeking is well established, I believe, probably excessively, in my view. That is, "truth is beauty, and beauty truth" is a proverb that carries quite a bit of truth. As a mathematician, especially, a beautiful proof of a theorem is more surely true than one that is clumsy. But this is subjective. So is "that's a good question." Inspiration in general has a subjective tang to it.
But still, the fact that some ideas really turn me on, and others aggravate me, cannot be the last word in deciding how true that idea is. Hence, we have the scientific method, which I hope you recall controls subjectivity, enhances understanding, and estimates, objectively, plausibility.
So, devise inexpensive, low-risk experiments to test ideas, even unpleasent ones. Fear being wrong more than having to change your emotional response to an idea.
In theology, by the way, it is wise to explore and test the idea that you can control what aggravates you, and what you like, according to your notion of wisdom and truth. So-called "Godly" women like Suzannah Wesley and the woman who married Jonathon Edwards decided that, if they wanted large broods of eminent children, they would be better off liking to be submissive to their husbands. They made the choice, did the spiritual work to change their feelings about this, got to enjoy it, actually, and basically changed the world through their children, who uniformly affirmed it was their mother's training that made them effective.
In other words, you can decide what feelings to have about things, so it is proposed, and then can order up and receive those feelings. Your will and understanding, of course, preserve your identity through all this. You are who you choose to be, not what you want to be. So the idea goes. It's worth finding out if such an idea is true.
I am referring to 1 Corinthians 11 and a passage in C.S. Lewis' 'Mere Christianity':
"On the other hand, it (the Christian society) is always insisting on
obedience- obedience (and outward marks of respect) from all of us to
properly appointed magistrates, from children to parents and (I am afraid this is going to b very unpopular) from wives to husbands."
My own scientific study of this idea has produced this understanding. As primates, we are naturally gifted with the behavioral response, that males feel submissive to sexual receptive and active females. Human females are quite often in this condition, so it is easy for males to submit to women. Males also, because of stronger group orientation, are more accustomed to living in dominance hierarchies, where submission is natural, advantageous to all. Hence, the flesh of men makes it easy for them to be submissive to women. Now, God says this is wise. God says it improves life for everyone to submit to everyone else. So, it is also wise for women to be submissive to men. But their flesh, their primate instincts, generally go against this. Women are more territorial, and also are apt to be exploited by male sexuality because babies cost them more. So, they are not naturally submissive. Because they are weaker, they may be inclined to be bullied into it, but clearly this is not what God has in mind. Hence, just so women reading the scriptures don't miss the point that everyone is to be submissive to everyone else, it is pointedly repeated that this includes their (spiritually motivated) submission to men, as well as men's submission to them.
Now, obedience to authority is slightly different. In a war, someone has to have the last word, or the troops can be immobilized by indecision. We all need to submit to one another, but everyone has to have someone, in a crisis, that they will obey, lest the team break up. Divided we fall, you know.
It's best to seriously explore ideas about authority after you are confident of the truth of spiritual warfare, or otherwise want to join some team that must stick together to succeed. Many would argue that parents raising children will succeed better if the parents stick together, in love with one another. If there is a clear authority, they are more likely to stick together. But, to stay together in love, we must go back to the idea that one can love who one chooses, as deeply as one chooses. If that also is true, when one's love for a spouse wanes, more can be ordered and received, maybe. (Hence the origin of the term, "making love.")
I will continue, but if something seems strained, you would be wise to shelve the discussion, and take up consideration of ideas about spiritual warfare. Lewis's Screwtape Letters is useful. Also, you might want to think about learning to choose and receive certain feelings.
So,why should women obey men in this battle? Well, actually, the team must obey Yeshua, who is invisible and spiritual. And who, we understand, is Himself obeying Jehovah. So, odedience per se is not optional. Jehovah in authority over Yeshua is their business, but maybe we could negotiate men over women or women over men, in this authority business? (Remember, authority and submission are different subjects. Everyone submits to everyone. But authority has hierachy, someone with a last word. Definitions are important here.) The question is, would it be better in a crisis for women to obey men, or men to obey women? It has to be one or the other in the "last word" or authority category, since shifting produces confusion at moments when confusion is fatal. Imagine a football team where it is not clear who calls the play, and you get an understanding of this principle.
Now, the flesh would dictate women primates in authority over men, so that natural submissiveness would support male obedience. So, we might think that's what God ought to have decided to do. But, we remember that obedience per se is designed to make an army effective in battle, by keeping it unified. In this battle, we are told that the way to win is strengthen prayer by overcoming the flesh by the spirit. If something evil is attacking one's children, and dad says to do something that mom thinks is unwise, she of course must have her say, and dad must submit to, hear, thoughtfully consider, what she says. Then, weighing all the input, he presents what is in his mind the best course of action. Let's say it is not what Momma wants. Then it took some spiritual guts for Dad to make his stand. Mom, in the interests of unity and getting God to come down and fight the evil, says OK. Muttering under her breath, of course, that God had better make this work, or she was going to have a word with Him about His so-called "divine order." God watches all this, credits all (especially her) with unselfish (unfleshly) praying, and moves in to drive away the evil.
Note that there are no grounds in scripture for men to have their fleshly way over women. When a husband tells his wife that he (just)wants her to do X, she should hear him submissively, take the idea seriously to heart, and then do what she believes God wants her to do. Authority is in the imperative voice, not just wants. Only when the husband commands should she obey, and even then, if there is time, only after checking with God that it was Him commanding, not the flesh of the husband. Frankly, it doesn't actually make sense for a woman to marry until she has heard God tell her personally that He will oversee all the imperative voice commands of her "head," and faith for that to happen has come to her. She should also have heard something about "winning her husband without a word" getting him to think and want and command what's right for them, because she has prayed aright.
This is all fairly complicated, but God does give us 13 years or so to teach all this to young women, in preparation for marriage. Time that should be used practising on daddy, wrapping, as they say, him around their little finger. In faith, of course. Not manipulation, which perverts the process.
Yeshua was clear. The power is in the prayer, and the more private the prayer, the more powerful. His plan was to empower everyone, especially women, through granting them incredible power in their prayer closets. The guidelines in scripture aimed at women have been perverted by Christianity. They are there to address the peculiar hindrances to spiritual power that afflict women and weaken them in their prayers. We all understand, don't we, that the greatest hindrance to spiritual power, is political power?
Many of us want a life that matters. All things are possible to someone who prays aright in faith.
Good question. Taking the issues decently and in order, I hope and pray you are able to see wisdom in the guidelines given, once they are properly understood.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Sarde, posted 03-10-2004 1:28 AM Sarde has not replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 183 (91641)
03-10-2004 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Sarde
03-10-2004 3:08 PM


Feelings about God
Sarde,
This quote from you interested me.
If it was God who told me what is right and what is wrong, why do so many things that the "all-good God" has supposedly done feel dead wrong?
The basic concept of being "born in sin" means that an evil angel has perverted our feelings and thoughts. What we sense as right and wrong, in terms of feelings, is almost sure to be distorted. Confused, or "fused with" some demonic or evil agenda. This is so, because it is a just consequence of certain decisions of our ancestors. To understand the justice of this, think of the things that have become a part of you because of where your parents chose to live, and what they chose to teach you. The theological argument asserts that one ancestor in particular (not your present parents) made a choice that exposed you to this evil influence.
So, consider the idea that you ought not trust these feelings. That you should "give God a break" and learn to ask Him what went on in His head and heart when such things went on, if indeed they did go on. Agreed, it seems impossible that a decent, loving God would command such things, but it cannot be wise for us to assume that what seems true to us, might not be wrong.
The desparate prayer, "Oh, God, say it isn't so!" is a good one. Try it, and see if you don't get a weird peace about all this stuff. Renewed faith that if you just take things in small steps, in order, it will all work out. The most dependable prayer experiment I know is "making your request known to almighty God, with supplication" and receiving "the peace of God, that surpasses understanding, will guard your heart and mind in Christ Yeshua".
Perserverance is good.
Stephen
[This message has been edited by Stephen ben Yeshua, 03-10-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Sarde, posted 03-10-2004 3:08 PM Sarde has not replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 183 (92311)
03-13-2004 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Sarde
03-13-2004 4:53 AM


Re: My decision until further notice
Sarde,
Thanks for your good questions and open interest. Do stay in touch, especially if your search pales.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Sarde, posted 03-13-2004 4:53 AM Sarde has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Sarde, posted 03-14-2004 1:18 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024