Keith63 writes:
When you read the Gospels you will find that Jesus never promised that everything would be all roses if you followed him.
Therefore, your previous comment about your life getting better
because you redevoted your life to Jesus holds no validity. Someone can begin to follow Jesus and their life gets better. Conversely, someone can begin to follow Jesus and their life gets worse. This seems a bit paradoxical if your claim is that following Jesus will make your life better. Your logic looks something a bit like this: If you follow Jesus, 1) your life will get better and 2) your life will get worse.
As for the prophecy bit: the following are taken from the Hopi White Feather Bear Clan creationist religion:
The Fourth World shall end soon, and the Fifth World will begin. This the elders everywhere know. The Signs over many years have been fulfilled, and so few are left.
"This is the First Sign: We were told of the coming of the white-skinned men, like Pahana, but not living like Pahana -- men who took the land that was not theirs and who struck their enemies with thunder. (Guns)
"This is the Second Sign: Our lands will see the coming of spinning wheels filled with voices. (Covered wagons)
"This is the Third Sign: A strange beast like a buffalo but with great long horns, will overrun the land in large numbers. (Longhorn cattle)
"This is the Fourth Sign: The land will be crossed by snakes of iron. (Railroad tracks)
"This is the Fifth Sign: The land shall be criss-crossed by a giant spider's web. (Power and telephone lines)
"This is the Sixth Sign: The land shall be criss-crossed with rivers of stone that make pictures in the sun. (Concrete roads and their mirage-producing effects.)
"This is the Seventh Sign: You will hear of the sea turning black, and many living things dying because of it. (Oil spills)
"This is the Eighth Sign: You will see many youth, who wear their hair long like our people, come and join the tribal nations, to learn our ways and wisdom. (Hippies)
Countless other religions have fulfilled prophecies. Just because a religion makes a vague statement about the future (e.g. war is almost certain to happen; it is the nature of mankind, and it doesn't take a divine entity to predict war in a region, especially one such as Jerusalem, which has been riddled with conflict for thousands of years) doesn't mean it's true.
With regards to the comment about Christian persecution:
1096 Bloody persecutions of the Jews at the beginning of the First Crusade, in Germany. Along the cities on the Rhine River alone, 12,000 Jews were killed. The Jews were branded second only to the Moslems as the enemies of Christendom. 1121 Jews driven out of Flanders (now part of Belgium). They were not to return nor to be tolerated until they repented of the guilt of killing Jesus Christ. 1189 At the coronation of Richard the Lionhearted, unexpected persecution of the Jews broke out in England. Most Jewish houses in London were burned, and many Jews killed. All possessions of the Jews were claimed by the Crown. Richard's successor alone, relieved the Jews of more than 8 million marks. 1215 At the IV Lateran Church Council, restrictions against the Jews by the church of Rome were issued. 1290 Edward I banished the Jews from England. 16,000 Jews left the country. 1298 Persecution of the Jews in Franconia, Bavaria and Austria. The Nobleman Kalbfleish alleged that he had received a divine order to destroy all the Jews. 140 Jewish communities were destroyed, and more than 100,000 Jews were mercilessly killed. 1320 In France, 40,000 shepherds dedicated themselves for the Shepherd Crusade to free Palestine from the Moslems. Under the influence of criminals and land speculators, they destroyed 120 Jewish communities. 1321 Jews were accused of having incited outlaws to poison wells and fountains in the district of Guienne, France. 5,000 Jews were burned at the stake. 1348 Jews were blamed for the plague throughout Europe, especially in Germany. In Strausberg 2,000 Jews were burned. In Maintz 6,000 were killed in most gruesome fashion, and in Erfut 3,000; and in Worms 400 Jews burned themselves in their homes. 1391 Persecutions in Spain. In Seville and 70 other Jewish communities, the Jews were cruelly massacred and their bodies dismembered. 1492 The banishment of Jews from Spain. 300,000 Jews who refused to be "baptized" into the Church of Rome left Spain penniless. Many migrated to the Muslim country, Turkey, where they found tolerance and a welcome. 1497 Banishment of the Jews from Portugal. Many were ultimately declared slaves. 1794 Restriction of Jews in Russia, Jewish men were forced to serve 25 years in the Russian military. Many hundreds of thousands of Jews left Russia. 1846-78 All former restriction, against the Jews in the Vatican State were re-inforced by Pope Pius IX. 1903 Renewed restrictions of Jews in Russia. Frequent pogroms (massacres); general impoverishment of Russian Jewry. 1933 Commencement of persecution of Jews in Hitler Germany. Inception of the systematic destruction of 6,000,000 Jews throughout Nazi-occupied Europe.
The ACLU doesn't want to allow Christian symbols in public areas. Wow, they really must be the devil. Thousands of years of Jewish persecution pales in comparison to such a crime. If persecution is your premise for faith, maybe you should convert to Judaism; "just because people seem bent on destroying it" is an entirely unfounded reason to believe in something. See how your logic can commit you to accepting other religions because they experience adversity?
Keith, I'd love to hear more of your arguments for Christianity and/or counterobjections to the foregoing objections. I'd especially love to see a metaphysical argument for the existence of a god--especially the
Judeo-Christian god.
P.S. to "J"- Please offer something intelligent to this discussion
[This message has been edited by eraofhypercolor, 03-25-2004]