I want to be convinced - an experiment

Well, I wouldn't call it anything more than an attempt at a debate. It's a bit hard to have a real discussion when the other side is more dedicated to attacking a side point - and in a dishonest and evasice way at that.I agree that the nastiness of the Old Testament God in Joshua (as well as Exodus and Numbers) is a real obstacle to accepting Christianity. It seems to me that the whole issue of the Promised Land and Jewish exclusivity is very much tied into the whole Messiah concept - or perhaps more accurately the concepts that led to the idea of a Messiah which - so far as I can tell - strictly speaking postdates any of the Old Testament books.

I'd like to send you an e-mail, to ask some personal questions, but your e-mail address isn't listed. Mine is, would you send me an e-mail so that I can reply to it?

To all,First of all, Stephen, thank you for you extensive explanation of women/submission. You have given me food for thought. I'd be interested to hear what Truthlover has to say on the subject, or does he agree wholeheartedly with Stephen?My preliminary decision is this: I know in my heart that there is truth in Jesus. However, I find it extremely hard to have faith, to pray etc. Therefore I have decided, together with my best friend, who became a Christian several months ago, that the least I (we) can do is to try and follow Jesus' example. I will try to think with everything I do "What would Jesus do if He were in my shoes?". I am hoping that this process will increase my faith and help me understand Jesus better. Of course I will also continue my study of the Bible and other Christian literature to further my knowledge and understanding.I'll be sticking around here to ask questions and join in topics of interest. Thanks to all of you for trying to aid me in my quest!

I haven't read all the reply's in this post but if I may I would like to recommend Lee Strobles book "The Case for Christ" and its companion "The Case for Faith". He was an athiest who did a study in an attempt to disprove the bible and became a Christian. I know some people on this site have a problem with the book because they say Lee Stroble didn't interview those who did not believe in the Bible but I have always maintained that he represented the athiest side and was probably well aware of their arguments already. If someone else has recommended this already I apologize. If you have questions let me know. I love discussing this information but I am a high school biology teacher and don't have the time to do exaustive searches for references. If you do some searches of this site you will find some responses I have made earlier this year on the empty tomb, the apparent descrepencies in the Gospels, and evidence of the Kings of Isreal.
I can tell you what Jesus has done for me. I was on a very self distructive path and was probably on my way to prison or worse. After recommiting my life to Jesus I am now a very happy husband and father of a beautiful 22 month old. Let me know if you need information.ps. Don't anyone give me the site discussing Lee Strobles books. I've seen them.

Sarde,Thanks for your good questions and open interest. Do stay in touch, especially if your search pales.Stephen

'A Case for Christ' is already on my reading list. I've read twenty or so pages of it at a friend's house and my first impression was that it doesn't delve very deeply into things. But I will read it and let you know what I think.[This message has been edited by Sarde, 03-14-2004]

I will stay in touch. I am in touch through e-mail with Truthlover and I think he might be a great help to me in my quest. I'm about to leave home for church with my best friend. I'll be sure to check in and give you an update every once in a while!

Keith,
You asserted that recommitting your life to Jesus saved you from a path leading to prison or worse. Do you accept this as proof that Jesus/the Judeo-Christian god exists? My instincts lead me to believe that the reason "recommitting your life" to Jesus "saved you" from prison is perhaps related to the fact that Western society is based upon Christian morals and ethics. Reading the bible would indeed help one to understand the moral force that underlies our civil codes, for it has been relied upon for centuries to provide laws.To employ an extreme hypothesis, would following Jesus' example have helped you survive in a society where individuals are killed unless they are vain, regularly commit adultery, steal, have sex whenever they want to, etc.?The heart of my dissatisfaction with your decision to follow Jesus lies within the question of how you know that Jesus exists simply because your life took a turn for the better after following the morals of the Bible. One of my friends converted to Christianity, only to be faced subsequently with his father's death. Do you see how your logic might be a bit faulty?Tangentally, and I might like to see a separate discussion of this (if one doesn't already exist), how do you know that Jesus is the profet to follow and not Mohammed or Buddha, etc.?

Well stop trying so hard.Just let him come to you.The only person who can come to you a change your doubts is Jesus.I dont have a religion but that doesnt stop me from believing.Pray to yourself because the power of God is in you. be good too.

Ick...do I really want the power of God in me? That sounds a bit nasty. I'm perfectly happy being the freethinker I am, but thanks for the entirely vague encouragement (especially the "be good" part, which just opens up another can of worms; how can I be something that has no distinct guidelines? What the Koran tells me is good, while along the lines of the Bible, is quite different than the Bible's moral ethic nonetheless).

Let me start by answering the part about your friends father dying. When you read the Gospels you will find that Jesus never promised that everything would be all roses if you followed him. In fact He said you would have to "pick up your cross daily" to follow him. There is one thing that is 100% in life and that is that everyone will at some time have to die. What Jesus promised was that those who choose to follow him will only die once. And then we would take part with him in heaven for the rest of eternity. His death on the Cross paid the dept for the rest of us.
If you look on a post under the Bible accuracy section about the truth of the resurection I posted quite a few replies about the truth of the Gospels. This is one part of one. As you can see the apostles, who were Jesus closest friends and his chosen followers were not promised money, success or hapiness in this life. Now that's not to say in the Bible that those things are not given to people. Abraham, Issac and Jacob were all exceedingly wealthy. So were David and Solomen. What Jesus promises is that if you admit your sins and follow him, he is faithful to forgive your sins and you will be with him forever in paradise.Let me put it this way. Most of us will live for at the most 70-90 years. But eternity is forever. As some of the writers in the bible put it "we are here for a breath, and then gone." So if we follow Jesus here on Earth we will be with him for eternity in heaven. However if you choose not to follow him you may have riches here but spend the rest of eternity in hell away from God. As Jesus puts it "What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, but forfiets his eternal soul?"Now, how do I know if the Bible is true and Jesus is the correct profit? THis is a much more indepth issue. One short answer is in the fact that the entire world seems bent on getting rid of Christianity. If you believe in the Bible it says that there is a litteral satan who will do war with the saints. And we see now that the humanistic, secular world we live in seems to have no problem with the other religions except Christianity. In fact many schools will allow, and in some cases require, teaching islam or Judeism, but prohibit the teaching of Christianity. Just look at Christmas time. The ACLU is Hell bent on removing all Christian symbols from any public area, but they will readily allow any other religious symbols to be displayed. I even recently saw an article on the World Net Daily which said that Jewish people were upset because a school district banned the display of any Christian symbols, but allowed a Jewish manora to be displayed because they said it wasn't a religious symbol. If satan is real, this sounds like the kind of thing he would do.I also believe because of the prophecy in the bible. Read Isaah 53. It is known it was written 700 years before the birth of Jesus and it exactly describes the details of Jesus life, persecution, and death. In fact in another article on the World Net Daily, they discussed how many synagogues are deleting that passage from their yearly readings.Also the Bible says that the Isrealites would be scattered among the nations, would come back to their land (1946) and there will be a third Temple built, and there will be war until the antichrist comes up with a peace plan that actually works. If you watch the news at all you will know that all these things have either happened or are about to happen. All the materials are in storage to build the next temple. We obviously do not have peace in the Middle east. And it doesn't look like we will in the near future. I could go on and on. Maybe this should be a new thread.Well I am pressed for time right now. Got to go.

true...

Therefore, your previous comment about your life getting better because you redevoted your life to Jesus holds no validity. Someone can begin to follow Jesus and their life gets better. Conversely, someone can begin to follow Jesus and their life gets worse. This seems a bit paradoxical if your claim is that following Jesus will make your life better. Your logic looks something a bit like this: If you follow Jesus, 1) your life will get better and 2) your life will get worse.As for the prophecy bit: the following are taken from the Hopi White Feather Bear Clan creationist religion: Countless other religions have fulfilled prophecies. Just because a religion makes a vague statement about the future (e.g. war is almost certain to happen; it is the nature of mankind, and it doesn't take a divine entity to predict war in a region, especially one such as Jerusalem, which has been riddled with conflict for thousands of years) doesn't mean it's true.With regards to the comment about Christian persecution: The ACLU doesn't want to allow Christian symbols in public areas. Wow, they really must be the devil. Thousands of years of Jewish persecution pales in comparison to such a crime. If persecution is your premise for faith, maybe you should convert to Judaism; "just because people seem bent on destroying it" is an entirely unfounded reason to believe in something. See how your logic can commit you to accepting other religions because they experience adversity?Keith, I'd love to hear more of your arguments for Christianity and/or counterobjections to the foregoing objections. I'd especially love to see a metaphysical argument for the existence of a god--especially the Judeo-Christian god.P.S. to "J"- Please offer something intelligent to this discussion[This message has been edited by eraofhypercolor, 03-25-2004]

I said for me life got better. The change is from within. I no longer am searching for something to fill the void I always felt. I tried the drinking and chasing women, I was a good athlete, had lots of friends yet their was always something missing. When I finally came back to my upbringing and followed Jesus that filled that void that I had. I am now satisfied with life, I am not chasing that something else which never seems to work, and I have a great peace that when I die I know where I will be going. That's what makes life better. IF I followed your line of thinking, when you become a Christian your family will never die, you will get everything you need, and you will never have problems again. Obviously that is not the case. It's the peace and knowledge that my sins have been forgivin that makes life so much better. God has changed me and that is what makes life worth living. Have you applied the same critique used for the bible? When was this written? How do we know it is accurate? If it were written after the fact then of course it would seem accurate. I did some preliminary research and I don't find the answers to these questions. I didn't say persecution was my only premise for faith. And The persecution of the Jews helps explain why the Bible is accurate. The Jews were Gods chosen people. Jesus was a Jew. The Bible says salvation comes from the Jews. However the Jews did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah so they would be persecuted. But the Bible says they would be brought back to the promise land and they will build a third temple. They are mentioned prominantly in the prophecies of the Bible and in spite of intense persecution they have persisted as a nation. This is good evidence that the Bible is correct.I have included a site which may answer many of your questions. They even have a site on "skeptics questions"http://www.carm.org/evidence.htmhttp://www.carm.org/questions_skeptics.htm My point here is that they seem to target only the Christian religion. The prophecies of the Bible could hardly be called vague. Here is a site which shows the prophecies of Isreal in the end times. It is not vague. 144,000 prophets, 7 year peace deal with Isreal, the treaty broken after 3 1/2 years. These don't sound vague!!What is Israel’s role in the end times? | GotQuestions.org This site says it better than I can.Does God exist? | GotQuestions.org[This message has been edited by keith63, 03-25-2004]

Not at all, Sarde. Ever since I gave my life to God I have wanted nothing more than to know the Truth and to share it with whomever will hear it. Forgive me for sounding assertive in my last response, but it's just that over-developed sense of wanting to discuss my faith with people and helping them. Jesus said to take the branch out of your eye before helping your brother with the speck in theirs. In a way becoming a Christian was a big step in removing that branch for me, and so now I seek to help people understand more if possible (notice my signature below). It's something I dwell on... often! Sorry to sound repetitive. I take the Bible for face-value (provided, John wrote what he SAW in Revelation, and since he lived about 20 centuries ago it's difficult to put some of it into modern perspecive, but you get the idea I'm sure). And it was that mentality--along with studing what the Bible had to say about Hell and dying that scared me so much I cried relentlessly--often--for fear that the wrongs in my life had condemned me to damnationTake it how it's dealt. I believe that God puts in the heart of every man a desire to know Him (even though some people fill that desire with false followings--Satanism, corruption of the Roman Catholic church, politics, Greek Mythology, etc.) and that is why every man has a desire to become better--smarter, more enlightened, etc.Don't reject God on behalf of people leading you away (luke-warm Christians serving as bad examples within the church).Don't feel turned off. I truly DO have concern (not about whether or not you're happy, but whether or not you're satisfied with your understanding of the truth).Hope it helps... Sincerely,
Servant

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Open minds and open hearts... seeing what the world chooses not to see... seeing what no one else sees...