Examples of non-Christian Moral systems.

Nor have we gotten to the issue of verbal abuse, while physical abuse almost seems to be endorsed by the bible.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

Yes. No. And I didn't mean to imply otherwise. In fact, the opposite was my intention.

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I have a bit of a problem with what appears to me to be the prime basis for your arguments or statements; namely that the only system of moral belief that is valid is the Christian one. The basis for this argument from you appears to be based solely on your faith and belief in the Christian deity.

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We see in the past how western nations. Which are the nations that quite frankly rule the world, in which morals to choose were mostly christian. Christianity is the moral standard that the majority of the world has embraced as being the one we choose to live under. Christian morality has been derived from Gods character. Not by 'mans wisdom'. Americas Declaration of Independence was built on such an unchanging basis for rights. Thomas Jefferson proclaimed the need for such a basis when he asked rhetorically, "Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?". During the British Coronation ceremony a Bible is presented to the monarch with the words "We present you with this book, the most valuable thing this world affords. Here is wisdon. This is the Royal Law. These are the lively oracles of God". These words are true and deeply significant. Look at Americas past. The 10 commandments were sacred and true. Todays sinful man has thrown them out and pretended like God does not exist anymore. What did you do in courtrooms but put your hand on a Bible and swear unto God?. God gave Moses the Ten Commandments, one of the oldest codified sets of laws. Its been the Bible always. Gods word.

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can you provide reasons why the Christian moral system and codes is a superior system to that of Buddhism or Taoism?

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Buddhism is based on the opinion of a philosopher. Buddha was born around 563BC. A long time after Moses had delivered Gods law to the nation of Israel. Buddhism is an anti-god philosophy. It is athiestic in its philosophy. The Bible warned us that the fool had said in his heart, there is no God. Buddhism is a new age philosophy, that im my opinion is a false religion. There is respect for Buddha however for not professing to be God merely attempted to improve Hindu philosophy. No divine evidence. Died and remained dead.

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can you provide any reason why selecting the best aspects of the different systems would not yield a superior moral code of behavior?

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Whos to decide which morals we pick? The goverment? The majority?. All this does is make morals relative again. Which is why nothing is right or wrong if the individual is his own person and can decide to choose truth for himself. We need a firm foundation of absolutes. In the past its been judeo/christianity, its been Jesus and Gods teachings to mankind. The only reason man has pushed christianity aside is because he does not want to live under Gods rules, but mans rules.

"There you go again

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We see in the past how western nations. Which are the nations that quite frankly rule the world, in which morals to choose were mostly christian. Christianity is the moral standard that the majority of the world has embraced as being the one we choose to live under.

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Part of this is in error,
the majority of the world is not christian . Now, while the world is largely dominated both economically and militarily by nations that arelargely populated by Christians and with a largely christian heritage that has not always been the case. The largely christian nations did not dominate the earth until the 1700's or later, well after they became christian. The cause was largely due to shifts in their approach to viewing the natural world and it was after they started with technological advances that they started to truly dominate the world scene. Now, there are some theories that the combination of older styles of thought and governance left over from the pre-christian Celtic, Frank and Germanic tribes as well as the Roman and Greek influence combined with certain aspects of Christianity that did allow more questioning (after the reformation and the renaissance) made Europe uniquely positioned to make these technological advances. What can not be disputed is that 1) it is a fairly recent occurrence and 2) it is due at least as much if not more to the technological advances than the morality from Christianity.

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Christian morality has been derived from Gods character. Not by 'mans wisdom'.

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Nope, there is no evidence for that. That is why I asked for you to try to define the superiority of the christian morality without basing your argument on the existence of a disputed deity.
For example

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Buddhism is based on the opinion of a philosopher. Buddha was born around 563BC. A long time after Moses had delivered Gods law to the nation of Israel. Buddhism is an anti-god philosophy. It is athiestic in its philosophy. The Bible warned us that the fool had said in his heart, there is no God. Buddhism is a new age philosophy, that im my opinion is a false religion. There is respect for Buddha however for not professing to be God merely attempted to improve Hindu philosophy. No divine evidence. Died and remained dead.

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First off peoples new age crap approach to Buddhism does not make the religion new age. Second, Moses post-dates the Codes from Ancient Babylon based on the data that the plagues of Egypt were dated to the explosion of Thera. Finally, you are still assuming the existence of your deity while I am looking at Moses and Jesus the same way that you look at Buddha. In other words you still have not substantiated your case for the supposed superiority of christian moral based on anything other than a belief in a debatable deity.

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can you provide any reason why selecting the best aspects of the different systems would not yield a superior moral code of behavior?

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Whos to decide which morals we pick? The goverment? The majority?. All this does is make morals relative again. Which is why nothing is right or wrong if the individual is his own person and can decide to choose truth for himself. We need a firm foundation of absolutes. In the past its been judeo/christianity, its been Jesus and Gods teachings to mankind. The only reason man has pushed christianity aside is because he does not want to live under Gods rules, but mans rules.

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So, can I take this as a no ? If so please explain why.

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"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
and my family motto
Transfixus sed non mortis
Taz

The point of this thread is to look at how well non-Christian moral systems compare to the Judaic based (Jews, Christians and Muslims) moral systems.How can you reconcile the fact that almost all of the wars, slaughter, genocide and destruction of society during the last 2000 years were committed and driven by the supposedly moral Christian nations, while almost no acts of violence, genocide, and destruction of societies was committed by followers of Confucius, Buddha, Mencius or any of the Eastern Philosophers?Do you agree that one test of the validity of a moral system should be the lives and behavior of its followers?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Can you please name the Christian nations of the past 2000 years and all the wars that each started, so that I can look into this?

Every European nation during the last 1000 years?(Warning: No true Scotsman fallacy coming up!)

It might be easier to go the other way. But let's take a start at it.There were the Crusades.There was the Reformation and counter reformation.There was something called the Inquisition.Do you know how the title "Defender of the Faith" got added to the English Crown?Are you familiar with the Marian Martyrs?How about the 100 Years War?What about the War of the Roses?How about The Troubles?Who was it that destroyed the existing American Civilizations and burned all the Codex?Are you familiar with "Manifest Destany"?There was this Christian called Hitler.Palestine today.The terrorist issues today.Actually, I doubt that you can find many conflicts in the last 2000 years that were NOT driven by one of the Judaic nations.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

So you're saying we take a look at all the worlds moral codes and pick the morals we like best? Well, what we, enlightened people, might like best, the rest of the world may not like best. Who's to say what's best?I'm not saying it can't be done. In fact it obviously can be done and work. The "superiority" of it is subjective. Depending on the people who make the selections you could get an excellent or a terrible code. Any objective person can find moral truth by conscience or reason apart from the Bible. But without God's authority, these are just his opinions.These opinions can and have provided moral codes for all of human history, but they all contain elements of the same moral truth.

Many of the wars you listed (that I am familiar with) happened when religious leaders gained political power. This caused them to abandon the Christian moral code.Agreed the Native Americans were dealt with unfairly, but was the United States treating their enemies on the basis of integrity that the Bible demands? Many times no. However, the wars against the indians were definately not all unjustified. Before we even came here, the indians were constantly engaged in battles amongst themselves slaughtering each other. There is nothing wrong with a war to establish peace and security, in fact military victory is the only way to maintain peace and security in the long run.Hitler obviously did not follow the Christian moral code.How do you ascribe the problems in Palestine with the Christian moral code? The problems in palestine are a direct result of NOT following the Christian moral code.How on earth do you get the terrorist problem to be the result of the Christian moral code? This is absurd.I wanted to see what nations adhering to the Christian moral code have started wars in the past 2000 years, not what wars have been the result of the perversion of the Christian moral code.

Are you counting Turkey, China, Vietnam, India, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Myanmar, Japan, Egypt, and Syria as Judaic nations?

Once again you take the easy out.First, the Judaic religions, Muslim, Jewish and Christian all go back to the same OT basis. You can try to deny it but it is still fact.So let's go to just a few specifics.Do you know how "Defender of the Faith" got added to the English Crown?Do you know about the Marian Martyrs?Do you know about the Inquisition?It is easy to temporize and say "If the outcome does not fit my preconcieved notions then I will disregard it", but that is dishonest.History shows us, unfortunately, that the Judaic based religions, have been the least moral, least tolerant of any of the religions ever created.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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This caused them to abandon the Christian moral code.

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No true Scotsman fallacy has been sighted and confirmed.

What? I challenge that. The mongols, huns, goths, celts, Persians, Indian Aryans... there are plenty of examples of cultures and religions which were just as intolerant, or moreso, than Judaic based religions.Lots of countries have liquidated entire populations. That's about as intolerant as it gets.This message has been edited by custard, 06-30-2004 12:45 PM

Pakistan, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Iran, Iraq would definitely be Judaic states.China, Vietnam, Burma (Myanmar) are very interesting cases. While they were predomently Buddhist, they certainly were peaceful. In each case, it was only after abandoning the Buddhist doctrines that things went south.I am very glad that you brought up Japan. It opens the opportunity to talk about Shintoism. Of all of the Moral Systems out there, Shintoism is an exception. It is the only one that I know of that has an absolute acknowledgement that there is no difference between Good and Evil.I have had a hard time coming to grips with the Shinto belief system. That has not been for lack of effort, but rather the fact that it really does seem ammoral at base. IMHO, much of the horror that resulted from the rise of Japanese Imperialism can be laid at the doorstep of Shintoism.I wish we had someone here who could speak from that perspective. It would be interesting.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion