Examples of non-Christian Moral systems.

I do have dental care, and I've had a temporary cap on my tooth for the past year. To get the permanent cap and bridge would cost $1,500.00 with insurance, and that's more money than I see at once, ever.

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"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck

Mike... far as I can tell from the very first definition you present, all it takes to be a true Christian is to profess belief in Jesus as Christ. Or you could always follow the religion based on his life and teachings. (Which says nothing about following his actual teachings.)So really, it seems that by your definition, one could contradict Jesus' teachings with their actions, and remain a true Christian.

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"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck

Nope. And that's certainly a definition of Christian. But not, as your own dictionary reference makes clear, the only definition of Christian.You seem to be ignoring definitions you don't like.The problem with your comparison to visiting England and proclaiming yourself an Englishman is that you'd be hard-pressed to find a dictionary definition of Englishman that says, "One who has visited England."

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"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck

In fairness, isn't there quite a bit of Hindu/Buddhist violence? Not any wars I know of, but still.This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 07-06-2004 01:16 PM

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"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck

Beats me. We weren't talking about sin, so why would you bring it up, other than to strawman? Yes. And what you define as a backslidden Christian, your dictionary defines as a Christian.Personally, I define "delicious cream pie" as "german automobile." But for some reason, nobody seems to agree when I say "delicious cream pies taste awful."Certainly not when I patiently explain to them, "Oh, you're not thinking of TRUE delicious cream pies."

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"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck

An acknowledgement of definitions you provide would be a nice start. What are you basing that idea on? You provided several definitions, (via the dictionary) any one of which would qualify someone as a Christian. Amongst them are criteria that make no demands on actually acting like Christ. So to try and say that one must act like Christ to be a Christian is just silly. I'll make you a deal: you stop using logical fallacies, we'll stop pointing them out. Agreed. So stop ignoring the ones you don't like. Especially when they can be quoted from your sources. Gee, Mike, why don't you check for yourself? Does he meet any of those criteria you laid out when you provided several definitions of Christian? It would seem that simply professing belief in Jesus as Christ nails the very first definition on the list. So there we go, as long as the Nazi axe murderer professes belief in Jesus as Christ, he qualifies as a freakin' Christian. Don't like it? Talk to the people at the dictionary company, not me. Really? When did I do that? I could have sworn that earlier in the thread I corrected Jar, by pointing out violence between Hindus and Buddhists. But don't go paying attention to what I've actually written... that'd just be crazy.I can't really imagine any set of circumstances in which I'd blame evil acts on a concept, rather than the people who are waving that concept around as their flag. The very first definition on your list of definitions allows for it, Mike. I don't see why this incredibly simple idea has to be explained to you repeatedly.After this, you ramble a bit about my definition of Christianity, ignoring the fact that I am working with a definition you provided.

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"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck

Oh, I get it. You just don't know how to use a dictionary.Mike, when a dictionary presents multiple definitions, only one has to apply for use of the word to be valid. For instance, the dictionary presents the following definitions (amongst others) for the word "chair": Now, the object I am sitting on as I type this is not a seat of office, authority, or dignity, such as that of a bishop. And yet it is a true chair. Because all this chair has to do is meet one of the definitions.In other words, Schraff can stick all the broken coke bottles up your ass she wants as you scream for mercy, and yet if she simply acknowledges Jesus as Christ, then she is a true Christian.

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"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck

According to the dictionary, yeah, he's a Christian. Take it up with the dictionary people, huh? First definition doesn't demand following Christ or being Christlike, Mike. So I'm gonna call a big ol' strawman on that one. (Oops, I forgot... you find it annoying and lame to be called on logical fallacies.)But are we now saying that common sense overrides the dictionary? Because just a post ago, you were going on about how the dictionary definition was the really important thing. What changed? Apart from the position of the goalposts, I mean. Gee. The dictionary people sure dropped the ball by parsing that culmination of qualities into separate definitions. You really might want to consider dropping them a line and letting them know how wrong they are.I guess their definition should read: Seriously. Write 'em a letter. Tell them how badly they screwed up.

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"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck

It's also funny that, checking dictionary.com, I see that you're using the definition for "Christian" as an adjective. As a noun, there are only two definitions: Sorta kicks off that "culmination of qualities" idea, I guess.This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 07-07-2004 04:15 PM

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"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck

So... what you perceive to be common sense does override the dictionary. That's odd. I could have sworn there were two definitions there. No, it means you've stopped consulting the dictionary for your definitions. Lion is not defined as "big cat". No, Mike. It means that calling either one a lion is perfectly valid, and that if I point to a large carnivorous feline mammal (Panthera leo) of Africa and northwest India, having a short tawny coat, a tufted tail, and, in the male, a heavy mane around the neck and shoulders, and say, "that's a lion", you're just going to be a world class chump if you say "but it's not a brave man! Therefore it's not a true lion." And that objective source utterly cornholes your point. Thanks for providing it. Oddly enough, the English language is good enough for me. But have fun making up definitions. I'm sure it's a hoot. Or that there are five equally valid ways of defining the one word. (There are actually two, but you keep using the adjective instead of the noun.) Never said it was. Only that according to the dictionary, there are definitions that don't exclude it, any more than they exclude wearing funny paper hats. As always, only if we completely ignore definitions you don't like. And once again, talk to the good people at the dictionary company. Until then, the English language disagrees with your statements on what makes a Christian. Now this is just the funniest thing you've said all day. Oo, me first! I define "clock radio" to mean "naked Eliza Dushku".Holy crap, I gotta go. Apparently there's a naked Eliza Dushku in my bedroom! After all, I said that's what it means!This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 07-08-2004 01:51 AM

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"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck

Make him squeal like a piggy, Schraf.

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"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck

So long, then. I really tear you a new one in this post. Although in fairness to me, I resisted a lot of really good jokes, figuring they went a little too far. I'm tough, Mike... but I'm fair. It means that within the term Christian, there are many possible meanings. While each of those possible meanings are indeed separate things, they are all Christians, yes. I didn't know we needed it this simple. Catholic and Protestant. Happy? Two different things... both Christians. You ask if we can make up definitions outside the dictionary, and I point out that you're making up your own definitions, outside the dictionary. What's so untrue?At this point, I'm gonna go ahead and correct your highlighting. Two things you've missed: That "or" is important. As long as the person fulfills either half of this statement, they have fulfilled the requirement to be a Christian. Profess belief in Jesus as Christ? You're in the club. No other qualifiers. Following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus is not the same as following his actual life and teachings. This is why following his actual life and teachings is separated into another definition. Wickedness/atrocities are not excluded.If these explanations have to get any simpler, I'm gonna need to get some handpuppets. That's true. If all Christians profess belief in Jesus Christ, it does not automatically follow that all who profess belief in Jesus Christ are Christians. But the definition isn't saying that all Christians profess belief in Jesus Christ... it's saying that all who profess belief in Jesus Christ are Christians. That's what a definition does, Mike. IT DEFINES THE MEANING OF A WORD, IN THIS CASE, "CHRISTIAN".To put it very, very simply... When the word "lion" is defined as "brave man", the dictionary is saying that all brave men are lions. But the presence of other definitions shows that not all things that qualify as lions are brave men.Do you see now why your above logical example is based on a faulty premise? When the dictionary defines the word "Christian", they're saying that all things that meet one of those definitions are Christians.Hang on, I'll get the puppets. Maybe they'll help. You do? Well gosh Mike, you shouldn't be so shy about it. Sigh."My common sense doesn't override the dictionary... I just don't need the dictionary when I have common sense."Clap. Clap. Clap. Little hint, Mike. When you find that your perception of common sense is at odds with the dictionary definition of a word, chances are your perceptions are based on faulty assumptions. No. I think your logic demands ignoring facts in order to make it work. That would be a logical fallacy, Mike. Why yes, Mike. Yes it is.

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"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck

And, as always, the dictionary (and by extension, the English language) says different. The presence of multiple definitions, without any indication that they are in fact one definition, shows your statement to be false.So should I trust Mike or the English language... Mike or the English language... hm...Tough choice. Honest. Sigh. Is there a reason I should keep speaking to you after this little dodge?Regardless... another two examples of Christians that qualify as different things? Easy. The aforementioned axe-murdering nazi who believes in Jesus as Christ, and someone who actually follows the teachings of Jesus. This is pretty much spelled out for you in the definitions themselves, you just keep choosing to ignore it. Hey, I think a creationist is a scientist. In the same way I think Yahoo Serious is an actor. Y'know, he's really bad at what he does and deserves to be repeatedly mocked for his substandard, shoddy work. But still an actor. Now this is just adorable. You're actually trying to pass off the word "or" as evidence that both need to apply. Do we need to define "or" now, Mike? Because if so, I'm just gonna patiently wait while you take an English language course. (The need for that course would explain so much about this thread.)No, seriously. If we need to define "or", I'll wait while you take the course. Beats me. Are you saying that the organized religion has always followed Christ's teachings? Do we need to bring up the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the endorsement of the Holocaust, etc? You're not taking even the most cursory glance at history if you think they always do.Now we go in circles, you say they aren't true Christians, I say but they fit the definition, you say but Christians do what Christ says, I beat you over the head with the dictionary until the actual definitions of the word get utterly pounded into your brain, along with chunks of the dictionary itself. AND YOUR WHOLE POINT IS COMPLETELY UNSUPPORTABLE BY NATURE OF HOW A DICTIONARY IS USED. Learn how to use a dictionary.You've decided to assign the values of b and a as you choose, while completely ignoring what a dictionary is and does.When you define a word, you say "if it meets this criteria, the word applies." In other words, anything that meets the criteria can be described with this word. In the phrase "all a are b", a is the definition, b is the word.Anyone who believes in Jesus as Christ is a Christian.This is as simple as it gets without the puppets, Mike. Don't make me use the puppets. No, Mike. The presence of other definitions for the word Christian increases the possible applications of the term Christian, not of those who believe in Jesus as Christ.I can't believe I just had to explain that. This is like a Twilight Zone episode or something. Wish him into the cornfield, Dan. Wish him into the cornfield. Not automatically, no. Your point is? You're misassigning values when it comes to Christians. Whipping out a parallel where the values are correctly assigned is irrelevant. For believing that atheists don't necessarily deserve to be tortured until the end of time? No. For trying to assign your own definitions to words, and then complain when people point out that your definition is at odds with the English language? Oh, yeah.This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 07-09-2004 11:27 AM

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"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck

You asked how there could be two types of Christian. The fact that there are even more types than the ones I gave you does not help your assertion that there is only ONE definition for Christian. BECAUSE THERE IS MORE THAN ONE TYPE OF CHRISTIAN, YET CALLING ANY ONE OF THEM A CHRISTIAN IS EQUALLY VALID. Sometimes they can overlap, sometimes they don't. Much like the Scotsman who has sugar and his porridge, and the Scotsman who doesn't. Why is it so hard for you to even look directly at this incredibly simple idea? See my previous post. I explained to you why your logic was misapplied. Repeatedly. At length. As simply as any person can make it. And you respond by clapping your hands over your ears and saying, "you haven't refuted my logic." The time for diplomacy is over.You're an idiot.I am not asking you to abandon logical rules. I am saying that you are misapplying the terms within that logical rule. I explained why to you already. Go read it. No you haven't. This has also been explained to you as simply as possible. See above, re: you being an idiot. Once more, Mike. You are saying that the dictionary tells us that all Christians believe in Jesus as Christ, and that it does not follow that all who believe in Jesus as Christ are Christians. The logic is sound; the terms are not.Because the dictionary is not telling us that all Christians believe in Jesus as Christ. (Although that may happen to be the case.) The presence of multiple definitions shows us that this is not the case, that there are different ways in which one can qualify as a Christian.Therefore, what the dictionary is telling us is that all who believe in Jesus as Christ are Christian. This does not require flipping the statement around to say, "Aha! If all Christians believe in Jesus as Christ, then all who believe in Jesus as Christ must be Christians!" because the statement "all Christians believe in Jesus as Christ" NEVER ENTERS INTO THE FREAKIN' PICTURE.I am not arguing the logic. I am arguing the base assumption on which the logical conclusion is founded.So to sum up, you're just being an idiot. Amazing. Mike is ignoring a big chunk of a paragraph in order to make his point.Go figure. No, they're quite useful. I have to define Christian. Gee, this book will tell me what it is. Hey, look. This book says that the word Christian encompasses all people who fit one of these descriptions! Great, all people who believe in Jesus as Christ are Christians!For most people, this is an incredibly simple process. You seem to be having a great deal of difficulty with it, though. So... what, it's somehow my fault you look silly? In the same way that this: Would be similar to what you just said. Sure.When you ignore what you don't want to hear, it's so much easier to make your point, isn't it?

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"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck

I hate repeating myself, Mike. Especially to someone who isn't listening. So enjoy the following encore presentation, with a special bonus feature at the end. To use your own example, you are saying that in order to be a planet, an object in space must be Earth, and Venus, and Pluto, and Mercury, and Mars, and Neptune, and Saturn, and Jupiter, and Uranus. Just being one of them isn't enough to make it a true planet. That the only way to convince you that just being Earth is enough to make the object a true planet is to show you that Earth is the only planet.This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 07-09-2004 02:59 PM

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"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck