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Author Topic:   Examples of non-Christian Moral systems.
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1 of 296 (119024)
06-26-2004 1:58 PM


One of the claims made primarily by Creationists, is that Evolution removes GOD from the discussion and when GOD is removed you end up without a moral base. They seem to imagine that No (Christian) God = Immoral.
I wonder if it would be productive to discuss some of the other systems that have developed over time and to compare them with Christianity? In particular I was thinking of Mencius, Buddha and Mo Tzu but it would be nice if other examples were also included.
This would most likely be for the Faith & Belief section.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 296 (119033)
06-26-2004 2:42 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Brad
Member (Idle past 4788 days)
Posts: 143
From: Portland OR, USA
Joined: 01-26-2004


Message 3 of 296 (119045)
06-26-2004 3:24 PM


hmmmmmmm
I think it might be worth attempting to understand where moral belief comes from. IMO it comes from society, for example the Bible has always reflected the beliefs of it's time. So all forms of moral code are developed within a particular society. But morals come from wanting to better a society, it is a survival method for the entire society. But I think the Boondock Saints said it best:
"Do not rape,
Do not murder,
Do not steal,
These are principals which every man of every faith can embrace"
Hehe, pop-culture references are fun.
-Brad

  
epoch9
Inactive Junior Member


Message 4 of 296 (119046)
06-26-2004 3:31 PM


yep
maybe i am wrong but one society that comes immediately to mind is the greeks. they invented a lot of the legal system that we use. and i use them as my example because it seems that they were moral in spite of their gods. the pantheon of greek gods and demi-gods are a petty capricious and vengeful lot, this is just my opinion, i am just putting it out there, don't shoot the messenger.
ps-dig those crazy pop-culture references shadow man!

when knowledge is outlawed...only outlaws will have knowledge

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 5 of 296 (119056)
06-26-2004 3:51 PM


Native Americans
Native American Spirituality
Excerpt: Native traditions or beliefs are based on principles of good conduct and proper behaviour. The code of ethnics are in self respect and the respect of all of God's creation.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 296 (119081)
06-26-2004 5:23 PM


Thanks for the input so far.
Is it possible to get some examples from each of the sources mentioned so far about things related to social order and behavior?
In other words, can you point to specific equivalents to either the Ten Commandments or the Two Commandments as outlined in the Christian NT?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 7 of 296 (119086)
06-26-2004 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
06-26-2004 5:23 PM


The 8 fold path and rational morals
There is another side to the problem and that is changing morals -- the christian model beng fixed is not able to change with the times without some slight-of-hand interpretations.
As an example, there is no place I am aware of where one is told not to sexually molest a sister, or even children in general.
I also go with morals being social conventions that can change with the society. This is the essence of rational behavior and enlightened self-interest.
The "golden rule" exists in virtually every culture in one form or another and can be derived from first principals.
See: Universality and the Golden Rule, where universal applicability of the behavior is a test of it's moral value.
Also see Rousseau, The Social Contract (on-line version) as a basis for rational moral structures.
Finally, I find the "8 fold path of enlightenment" of Buddhism more universal than the 10 commandments (the first commandment in specific not being universal):
* Know the truth
* Resist evil
* Do not say anything to hurt others
* Respect life, property, and morality
* Work in such a way that you do not hurt others
* Free one's mind from evil thoughts
* Stay in control of one's feelings and thoughts
* Focus the mind through meditation - practice appropriate forms of concentration
and I cannot see anyone having any problem with them.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

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 Message 14 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-27-2004 2:45 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 17 by Rrhain, posted 06-27-2004 4:55 AM RAZD has replied
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 8 of 296 (119104)
06-26-2004 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by RAZD
06-26-2004 6:29 PM


Re: The 8 fold path and rational morals
There is no power in the knowledge of good and evil to choose the good over the evil.
That is the message we are supposed to learn from the Garden of Eden failure of Adam/Eve.
The proof of this truth is all the people in the world who are educated and know the difference between good and evil/right and wrong AND STILL DO EVIL ANYWAY. (just about everyone)
Separated from God - man cannot embrace good because there is no power to do so apart from God. There is no power in knowledge in this respect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by RAZD, posted 06-26-2004 6:29 PM RAZD has replied

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 9 of 296 (119105)
06-26-2004 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Cold Foreign Object
06-26-2004 8:25 PM


Re: The 8 fold path and rational morals
None of which is even a comment on my post or adding anything to the debate topic of the thread.
Animals have shown the ability to distinguish between good and bad, what does that prove?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

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 Message 8 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-26-2004 8:25 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 296 (119116)
06-26-2004 11:31 PM


One of my favorite of the Dao is # 19.
19.Get rid of "holiness" and abandon "wisdom" and the people will benefit a
hundredfold.
Get rid of "altruism" and abandon "Justice" and the people will return to
filial piety and compassion.
Get rid of cleverness and abandon profit, and thieves and gangsters will
not exist.
Since the above three are merely words, they are not sufficient.
Therefore there must be something to include them all.
See the origin and keep the non-differentiated state.
Lessen selfishness and decrease desire.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 296 (119129)
06-27-2004 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by RAZD
06-26-2004 6:29 PM


Re: The 8 fold path and rational morals
Is the Christian model fixed?
Would most Christians say so? After all, few would question that the laws laid out in Leviticus are applicable today.
Because the majority of the Christian moral standards are written as specifics based on very narrow points as opposed to broad moral examples, does the Christian Moral System require far more constant tinkering than most of the other Moral based systems in the world?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 296 (119153)
06-27-2004 1:56 AM


In relation to Buddhism. Why should we do what he says?. His not the boss, nor the creator, nor will he judge us all, nor has the power to cast one to utopia or hell. He has no authority to give a moral code.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 296 (119154)
06-27-2004 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by almeyda
06-27-2004 1:56 AM


Well, let's look at what he suggests as a moral code.
He says that there are three qualities,
  • Wisdom,
  • Morality
  • and Meditaion.
DO you see anything wrong with any of those?
He then goes on to say that there is an eightfold path towards Enlightenment. The path is
  • Right View
  • Right Thought
  • Right Speech
  • Right Action
  • Right Livelyhood
  • Right Effort
  • Right Mindfulness
  • and Right Contemplation
Do you see anything wrong with any of those?
Edited to add the section below.
One other thing. As in Christianity, what happens to you depends on you. If you do not follow a Moral Code you will suffer.
This is a Moral Code, and one that would exist regardless of Christianity. So often Christians seem to believe that only Christianity can create a Moral Code that people will follow. Yet Buddhism is but one example of extra-Christian Moral codes that are at least the equal of a Christian Moral code.
This message has been edited by jar, 06-27-2004 01:36 AM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 14 of 296 (119165)
06-27-2004 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by RAZD
06-26-2004 6:29 PM


Re: The 8 fold path and rational morals
One of my favorite lines from Gladiator: "What we do in this life, echoes in eternity". The values of honor, duty, and self-discipline were discovered by the Romans, who were not originally Christians.
There is another side to the problem and that is changing morals
Bingo.
As an example, there is no place I am aware of where one is told not to sexually molest a sister, or even children in general.
You mentioned the Golden rule, Jesus described this. Also, Jesus said something about not harming the little ones. Also, I think an OBJECTIVE study of the entire Bible reveals that sex is only for a man and woman in a life long relationship we call marriage... but let's not talk about that. "Molesting" is not "[virtue]-loving your neighbor."
the christian model beng fixed is not able to change with the times without some slight-of-hand interpretations.
The Christian model IS fixed. Are the times really changing so much? Do you think morality on the whole is evolving so that way on down the road something like the golden rule will be obsolete?
And yes, I recognize that EVERY model (including the Bible, which I believe is the only complete and untainted model) is extremely likely to be subjectively interpreted.
I also go with morals being social conventions that can change with the society. This is the essence of rational behavior and enlightened self-interest.
The problem is that when people are left to their own devices (without authority of any kind), they have no interest in rational behavior or "enlightened" self-interest, but only self (not humanity in general either just self). If parents fail to teach their children respect for authority, the government must or society falls apart. If people fail to respect God's authority in the morals their society adheres to the society will eventually either fall apart or not be free.
The "golden rule" exists in virtually every culture in one form or another and can be derived from first principals.
So it seems that the golden rule is a static truth and accepted universally. Can you conceive of a more evolved world full of societies where the "social conventions that can change with the society" would make the golden rule universally immoral? If not, then perhaps you will admit that we might have run into an element of absolute static moral truth?
* Know the truth
* Resist evil
* Do not say anything to hurt others
* Respect life, property, and morality
* Work in such a way that you do not hurt others
* Free one's mind from evil thoughts
* Stay in control of one's feelings and thoughts
* Focus the mind through meditation - practice appropriate forms of concentration
Oooo. No I don't have a problem with them. I realize you are addressing Jar's second paragraph in his OP, but let me have some fun with this.
What is truth? Who said what evil is? If hurting others makes me feel good, why should I not do it? Who said we should respect life, property, and morality? And what is morality? Oh, I stay in control of my thoughts and actions. I do exactly what I feel like doing with them...
Or perhaps: The truth is that the white race is supreme. Jews and all other races are evil, we must remove them. As whites we must adhere to our high moral calling and respect each other and each other's property and most importantly our morality which makes us better than the immoral scum of the world. Focus on controlling yourself for this is how our people will become great. (please note these are not my beliefs)
Obviously I have just injected subjectivity into that list by first adding hedonistic and then white supremist views (both of which are equally valid in your logic beacuse all good and bad is subjectively determined). The writer of wisdom, through some objective thinking determined what was "good". Without any authority to back it up, why should I not determine my own set of "morals" which may be contrary to the author's and everyone else's morals? I should? Or why should I not ignore the author's intent all together and twist his writings to fit my own ideals?
Oh... I should follow the intent (subject to subjective determination) of his wise words out of enlightened self-interest and rational thought.
I think I know what you mean by enlightened self-interest... but tell me how does one become enlightened or what and how must one learn so that one's selfishness is the source of one's morality? And if selfishenss is the origin of all good, then why is it good to be unselfish? And if altruism, unselfishness at its best, (which can even be life-endangering) is motivated by the selfish desire to feel good about one's self, how does this propogate one's genealogical line? If rational thought is what brings enlightenment, what ensures or validates the fact that you are thinking rationally (objectively)? Your own subjective experience?
I am not trying to pick on you. I am just trying to illuminate the need for an anchor to truth outside ourselves. God, being truth, is that anchor.
I am not saying that people and societies cannot find moral truths apart from God. I am saying that their attatchment to it is weak. It is dependent on things like tradition (relgious or otherwise), authority, the strong arm of the law, and the personal leanings of a society's governor(s) all of which rise and fall with the rise and fall of objectivity in societies throughout history.
Without God as an anchor to moral truth, it is easy for moral truths to be attacked and erroded away, ESPECIALLY in a self-governing democracy which is dependent upon the integrity (strict adherence to moral truth) of fickle people.

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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 15 of 296 (119166)
06-27-2004 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
06-27-2004 2:09 AM


Do you see anything wrong with any of those?
No. But who said what's right?
what happens to you depends on you.
Amen.
This is a Moral Code, and one that would exist regardless of Christianity.
Regardless of Christianity, Yes; regardless of God, no, because God is truth.
If you do not follow a Moral Code you will suffer.
This is evidence of an absolute moral truth that exists no matter where you are.
So often Christians seem to believe that only Christianity can create a Moral Code that people will follow.
God, not men, created the moral code and it exists for all humans everywhere. Like you said, if you ignore it you will suffer. Christians believe that only Christians have the complete and inerrant guide to it in the Bible.
Think of it like a go cart track. All of the drivers of the go carts on this track are blindfolded except for one. This one follows the track without problems. All the rest bump into the walls a few times until their blindfolds fall down a little and they can see a little more. They bump a little more and pretty soon they see the track entirely. Some have blindfolds on so tight, they just don't fall down. Some, put their blind folds back on to "let the spirit(s) guide them".
The track is absolute moral truth. The one without a blindfold is the one who possesses God's Word (The Bible) (I might add that by becoming subjective he puts the blindfold right back on even if he does have God's Word). The one who knocks his blindfold down by running into walls is like all those in history who have come up with a working moral code... etc.. and so forth.
The Buddhist's adhere to their moral code because they believe it came from a particularly enlightened man. They have faith that what he said is true and it pretty much works for them so they go with it.
I adhere to my moral code because I believe it came from God. I have faith that what God said is true and it fits reality so I go with it.
This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 06-27-2004 03:09 AM

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