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Author Topic:   Examples of non-Christian Moral systems.
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 286 of 296 (128099)
07-27-2004 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by jar
06-30-2004 1:47 PM


Japanese Imperialism
MHO, much of the horror that resulted from the rise of Japanese Imperialism can be laid at the doorstep of Shintoism.
Jar,
I would suggest even more of that horror should be laid at the doorstep of Britain's imperialistic devastation of China. Will Durant in his first volume of the Story of Civilization was writing before WWII. He predicted that Japan would go to war because Japan saw what Britain did to China, the opium wars, etc and realized that it could either be forced into being a colonial state, or become an imperialist itself, and to do that it needed raw materials. Durant predicted Japan would go to war. How is that for successful prophecy?
Much of the fighting and terrorism in the world is stemming from British colonialism, from Northern Ireland to the middle east. And for my bias I will state that I am a born in America of British and Scots/Irish descent.
Imperial Japan and Germany were examples of highly authoritarian cultures. I note that the fundamentalist on this list seem to feel authoritarianism is neccessary for a moral culture. Certainly the writers of the Bible claimed their god demanded genocide of them. This was more wishful thinking than fact however, as there is no evidence of Moses, Jericho, or an invasion of Canaan by Israelites.
Interestingly the Mongols converted to Buddhism and became peaceable.
How wonderful it would be if the Jews, Christians, and Muslim would also convert and live compassionately and non violently with one another.
peace,
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 06-30-2004 1:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by jar, posted 07-27-2004 2:21 PM lfen has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 287 of 296 (128103)
07-27-2004 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by lfen
07-27-2004 1:59 PM


Re: Japanese Imperialism
I would certainly agree that much of the problems we face today can be laid directly at the door step of Imperialism, and France, Germany, Great Britian and Italy certainly need to be featured players. But we cannot exclude the US as well.
But there is a big difference between going to war, and the atrocities that were committed by the Japanese during the war.
The subject of this thread is on examples of Non-Christian Moral systems. Within that context, Shintoism is unique in the fact that it has as a basic tenet that there is no difference between good and evil.
So far we have not really addressed that issue. I had hoped that there might be some members more knowledgable about Shintoism. I must admit that I have always had a hard time reconciling the basic portions with those of any other moral system I am familar with.
As to Mr. Durant, he (and his wife) have been a major force in my belief system. Even if many do not read all of his works, it is worthwhile to at least read the articles he published over the years on Wisdom and in particular, History.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by lfen, posted 07-27-2004 1:59 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by lfen, posted 07-27-2004 5:35 PM jar has replied
 Message 290 by contracycle, posted 07-28-2004 8:42 AM jar has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 288 of 296 (128150)
07-27-2004 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by jar
07-27-2004 2:21 PM


Re: Japanese Imperialism
jar,
I don't have a personal interest in Shinto. I did study it in a class on Chinese and Japanese religions. I don't recall anything about good and evil though. I was interested in Buddhism and Taoism rather than Shinto.
Have you reason to believe the Japanese were worse than the Nazi's and SS? Also, Stalin and Mao and Polpot among others have committed large scale atrocities. And we have seen small scale atrocities at the least by Americans in Vietnam and most recently Iraq. I see part of the problem of Germany and Japan at that time was they were very authoritarian cultures which held citizens to unthinking obedience. The Japanese did terrible things but I dont' think it was because of Shinto or Buddhism, Zen's appeal to the Samurai class notwithstanding.
China is doing terrible things in Tibet and I hate communism, but look what the Christian's did to the natives peoples of the Americas.
peace,
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by jar, posted 07-27-2004 2:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by jar, posted 07-27-2004 5:42 PM lfen has replied
 Message 295 by PaulK, posted 07-29-2004 12:12 PM lfen has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 289 of 296 (128153)
07-27-2004 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by lfen
07-27-2004 5:35 PM


Re: Japanese Imperialism
Let me ask you to do this then for me. Just to get a perspective from other than my personal experience, can you set aside a little lime and take a look at Shinto in comparison to the other Eastern philosophies.
I know that is asking a lot, time being as limited as it is for all of us but it would help greatly to get at least one other perspective.
Also, I don't think you will find much influence in either Zen or Buddhism in the Samuri Class. That is more a modern rendition and insertion.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by lfen, posted 07-27-2004 5:35 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by lfen, posted 07-29-2004 1:03 PM jar has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 290 of 296 (128330)
07-28-2004 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by jar
07-27-2004 2:21 PM


Re: Japanese Imperialism
quote:
The subject of this thread is on examples of Non-Christian Moral systems. Within that context, Shintoism is unique in the fact that it has as a basic tenet that there is no difference between good and evil.
So far we have not really addressed that issue. I had hoped that there might be some members more knowledgable about Shintoism. I must admit that I have always had a hard time reconciling the basic portions with those of any other moral system I am familar with.
Most pre-civilised moral systems are very clear on what constitutes good, and what evil: good is that which helps Us, and evil is that which hinders Us. I think Shinto would fall into that camp.
Christianity and related faiths - includings its Zorastran predecessor in this regard - seem to introduce these huge abstrract concepts of Good and Evil mainly, IMO, as a mechanism of moral criticism. Its mostly fear-mongering for the purpose of rulership.
In this regard, I consdier moral system which exhibit good and evil as substantially inferior to moral systems which do not. Because the definitions of good and evil are inevitably self-serving under a cloak of universality.
--
As to Zen and the Samurai, I disagree quite significantly. Martial zen, while by no means a universal cult, did do a much better job of constructing a satisfying worldview for the Samurai than Shinto did. It has aspects to it rather similar to Stoicism and I think this appealed to the martial caste. But whether this is true zen or distorted zen is something zennists debate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by jar, posted 07-27-2004 2:21 PM jar has not replied

  
Deimos Saturn
Inactive Member


Message 291 of 296 (128358)
07-28-2004 10:53 AM


no morality in nihilism but something very similar
Nihilist do not have morals, but it doesn't mean they steal, rape, kill, and so on.
As a nihilist, i know that i am currently a human, as a human according to my design and how i perceive or remember other humans to behave, and observing the accomplishments humanity has achieved, i know there are several principle functions of the human personality that increase our chances of survival.
Humans live in communes:
Humans have complex social structures, we have elite group leaders, usually the strongest, oldest, and or smartest, usually the smartest. Furthermore, mothers rear their young for the longest period of time for a longer period of time than any other animal on the earth until they are capable of joining other troops or living independently, not just because of laws or anything, the least sophisticated government systems in the world, bush/jungle tribes, are known to keep children within the family longer than any other animal on earth, usually longer for females.
Besides that, humans are known for expecting the entire commune, not just the family, to assist in rearing the child. This kind of social system is seen in gorillas, as well as aboriginals, many native american tribes, and infamously in italians. LOL.
Humans have the ability to talk and communicate in a written language. This suggests that the spoken/written word allows us to communicate ideas to other people, more often than not for purposes of survival, example:
How does the child know whether it should stay perfectly still or climb a tree when the troop sees a lion coming? they differentiate climbing trees and playing statue as two separate ideas. This effectually allows us to survive, since we no longer regard lions are a common threat, we are able to articulate other ideas with word like whether we came from a six day project or a six hundred billion year project.
Humans hunt together. Our large brains allow us to strategize how to stalk an elephant for several days and eventually stand directly beneath it without it knowing our presence. Since we no longer need to bring down elephants to eat or get bones from, we instead play football and perform ballet.
There are a myriad of other inherent behaviors in humans that I wont get in to, but the ones I mentioned show that our intended designs and the function of our brain are all the "morals" we will ever need. They are strikingly similar to religious morals. We shouldn't kill one another over petty things and only in the name of self preservation or the survival of the commune, if we kill over petty things we will be exiled from the commune forced to live on our own, severely reducing our chances of survival.
We do not rape, simply because if we rape, we are seen as unsafe and socially unpleasant and ultimately brought down severely on the social pecking order or abolished from the commune for certain death further inhibiting our ability to pass on our genes.
We do not steal, rather we share. Sharing is how humans came to survive near extinction in the evolutionist view. We share with the children, because we want our children to grow up with other children and increase their likely hood of survival, we share with one another to strengthen social bonds and form friendships or even love relationships in order for us to experience a mutual level of contentment. We don't steal because it creates a lack of trust within the commune that ultimately effects everyone, if caught stealing we will most likely have violent confrontation or risk being exiled from the troop to certain death.
None of my behaviors as a social rational safe friendly and trustworthy human being are religious or scientific. I am merely trying to survive.
Morals in any sense are a bad thing. Morals means that if you are in this religion then your morals are right and any opposing morals are wrong. Morals ultimately create confrontation. Cloning, stem cell research, abortion, legalized marijuana, rock and roll, are all person to person circumstance to circumstance situations in which morals or survival can legitimize depending on the circumstances and the person. However, morals are finite and difficult to say well she’s only fourteen, she was raped, she has a mother who didn’t graduate high school working as a waitress in a diner, no father, no older siblings, three other younger siblings, and lives inthat’s righta trailer park which is no environment for a child with a teenage mother to grow up in to. It becomes very difficult to justify the most minor incidents when it comes to morals like masturbation or even sexual fantasies. One reason why I am a nihilist.
Morals and survival aside, I believe in a person named Jesus Christ. I believe her performed miracles and inspired many people to change their lives for the better, many times averting them from near death. In any right, making someone quite using heroin on belief alone is a miracle in itself. I can say that faith in the possibility that someone like Jesus is possible is enough to help me overlook all the horrors of the world like HIV, world hunger, the hole in the o-zone, mass extinction, encroachment on rainforests, terrorism, OJ Simpson, Anna Nichole Smith, the Olsen twins, reality shows, the daily threat of nuclear annihilation, and last but not least racism.

Nihilism is the answer, and it's not what you think...
http://www.hatem.com

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by 1.61803, posted 07-28-2004 12:57 PM Deimos Saturn has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 292 of 296 (128384)
07-28-2004 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Deimos Saturn
07-28-2004 10:53 AM


Re: no morality in nihilism but something very similar
DeimosSaturn writes:
As a nihilist, i (sic) know that i (sic) am currently a human,
How do you know? You may be a elephant that is dreaming your a human.
DS writes:
as a human according to my design and how i (sic) perceive or remember other humans to behave...
Your design? That insinuates a designer.
DS writes:
Humans live in communes
Blanket statement.
DS writes:
Humans have complex social structures,
So do ants.and bees.
DS writes:
we have elite group leaders, usually the strongest, oldest, and or smartest, usually the smartest.
DS writes:
Humans have the ability to talk and communicate in a written language. This suggests that the spoken/written word allows us to communicate ideas to other people,
is that what communication is for? wow! And I though this was just redundant.
DS writes:
more often than not for purposes of survival, example: How does the child know whether it should stay perfectly still or climb a tree when the troop sees a lion coming?
Are we talking about monkeys or humans? Or do you not differentiate the two?
DS writes:
We do not rape,
Humans rape, and monkey do too.
DS writes:
We do not steal,
Bullshit.
DS writes:
Nihlilism is the answer, and it's not what you think...
It is not what you think either. IMO. *typo
This message has been edited by 1.61803, 07-28-2004 12:02 PM

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Deimos Saturn, posted 07-28-2004 10:53 AM Deimos Saturn has not replied

  
Deimos Saturn
Inactive Member


Message 293 of 296 (128399)
07-28-2004 2:23 PM


Usually when i speak of things as i perceive them as what they are currently i am speaking of the physical universe that appears to be real, hence the blanket statement.
Humans climb trees.
I insisted that humans do not do this or that because those things we don't do are things that diminishes our chances for survival and procreation (that includes rape because being caught commiting rape would mean instant exhile)however we do those things which goes against our design.
Nihilism is the understanding that all reality is illusory. Of course i was designed purposefully, nihilism suggests the "existence" of god. Existence is only things we can perceive that make up the illusion, since we cannot perceive god or perceive other people's consciousness doesn't mean a thing like god or the consciousness isn't possible by definition.
Is consciousness only a software in a brain or computer processor that computes delays and relays of electricity and chemicals? Can consciousness derive from something else? Is it possible for a plant to be conscious, or even a single drop of water. Like in the human brain, trillions or at least billions of bits of information are calculated by the cerebrum, cerebellum, and medulla. Our cerebrum is the finest engineering masterpiece of nature and probably the most complex arrangement of cells in comparison to all other living organisms on earth, and most likely the most complex collection of solid matter on earth.
An agreeable definition of God:
If you think about it, it is prejudice to say that only fatty acids and proteins or silicon chips can be conscious, if you take a step back, the entire universe and everything in it is an infinitely complex and infinitely big network of micro reactions. Micro reactions just like in the brain that makes up our consciousness, a consciousness that houses the construct of the physical universe, the physical universe itself is housing the construct of our consciousness and visa versa. So of course God is wise and omnipotent. God is conscious of everything in the universe because everything in the universe is inside it, we are not omnipotent because within the construct of the physical universe we experience we can only be conscious of that which is physical or emotional stimulus. We are limited by our perception of physicality, so ultimately, according to nihilism, evolution and creation are both false, if you dive deeper into the metaphysics of it all, ultimately even time is merely a construct of the consciousness, time is only believable to epistemologists and evolution can only be possible with time.
Basic understandings of nihilism.

Nihilism is the answer, and it's not what you think...
http://www.hatem.com

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by lfen, posted 07-29-2004 11:51 AM Deimos Saturn has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 294 of 296 (128615)
07-29-2004 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by Deimos Saturn
07-28-2004 2:23 PM


The answer to what question?
Nihilism is the answer, and it's not what you think...
What's the question?
peace,
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Deimos Saturn, posted 07-28-2004 2:23 PM Deimos Saturn has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 295 of 296 (128616)
07-29-2004 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by lfen
07-27-2004 5:35 PM


Re: Japanese Imperialism
Whether the Japanese were worse than the Nazis is hard to say. Probably not - although Prisoners of War may well have been better treated by the Germans
But what they did was certainly bad enough.
There's the Rape of Nanking
Tribo ’
BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | Scarred by history: The Rape of Nanjing
There's biological warfare experiments (Unit 731)
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/NanjingMassacre/NMU731.html
There's the use of "comfort women".
Page not found | C Soh-Boucher | SF State Faculty Sites
http://csf.colorado.edu/bcas/sample/comfdoc.htm

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by lfen, posted 07-27-2004 5:35 PM lfen has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 296 of 296 (128625)
07-29-2004 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by jar
07-27-2004 5:42 PM


Re: Japanese Imperialism
jar,
My recall from the religon class is coming back a bit.
Shinto as I recall is an animist religion relating to the spirit of places. Interesting in their origins story is that rather than an expulsion from the garden of eden thay are living in it. The islands of Japan are special to the sun goddess. I don't recall anything about good or evil.
The thing is that Buddhism came to Japan from Korea and had an influence for centuries.
I recall something from anthropology readings of years ago but I don't know if current thought in anthropology upholds these ideas or not. There was a distinction made between "guilt" based and "shame" based cultures. Guilt based is more on internal controls and shame based on external controls. Japan was said to use a shame base. That might have an influence of behaviour such as "the rape of Nanking" in that if your superiors ordered something and others were doing it there would be less internal reluctance to take part.
I suggest that the unique thing about Shinto is that it is the one example of an animist religion surviving into modern times and incorporated into a civilized society. Generally animistic beliefs are found in more primitive social organizations.
Zen, the japanese tranliteration of Chan, Buddhism arrived in Japan after Buddhism had already been embraced. The samurai class were attracted by its austerity and Zen teachers seem to have made some attempts to be intelligible to warriors. How deep the influence went in either direction I really don't know.
I've a long standing interest in Buddhism. I'm personally just not very interested in animism or Shinto. So this is hopefully my last words on it. Best of luck. There are some good books on comparative religion. We read in the class I took in Huston's Religions of the World. Not a bad place to start.
peace,
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by jar, posted 07-27-2004 5:42 PM jar has not replied

  
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