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Author | Topic: Choosing a faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
candle2 Member Posts: 850 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
ICANT, the blood of animals was not capable of
clearing the ancient israelites of sin, neither could burnt offerings. Hebrews 10:4 "For it is not possible that the blood of bullsand goats could take away sin." The priests could make a sin offering for atonement, butthis not clear one of guilt. The sin offering could cover (kaphar) sin, but it wasimpossible for the blood of animals to clear one of guilt. It was like a bandage. This same word, kaphar, was used to cover the Ark, on theinside and outside with pitch. If the blood of animals could take away sin, then Jesusdied for nothing. Salvation was never offered to the ancient israelites. TheOld Covenant was could save no one. The men of faith in the OT knew Jesus, who at that timewas the Word. He revealed Himself to them, and they accepted Hisfuture sacrifice. They placed their faith in Him. The people in the OT will receive their calling in the future.Everybody who has ever lived will get a calling. God does not show partiality.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi C2
C2 writes: Hebrews 10:4 "For it is not possible that the blood of bullsand goats could take away sin." It was not the blood of the bulls and goats that took away their sin but their obedience to obey God by doing what He said. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi C2,
Amos 3:1-2 "Hear this word that the Lord has spoken against you. O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying: ​ You only have I known of all the families of the earth;..." ​ Deuteronomy 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth." I got no problem with those verses Abraham's descendants are a special chosen people to God The problem is that : They rejected the Messiah and killed Him
quote: quote: quote: Jesus said He would build οἰκοδομέω (begin to build] His Church. A Church is a called out assembly for a specific reason. 29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. his church
quote: John said the bridegroom had His bride the only thing with Jesus was His Church thus His bride. Today the Bride is the chosen people. The devil has infiltrated the church today that she is fast becoming like Abrahams descendants. Most have rejected God and the time is fast approaching that God will say enough is enough. Stick with the subject. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
The devil has infiltrated the church today that she is fast becoming like Abrahams descendants. Most have rejected God and the time is fast approaching that God will say enough is enough. What's he going to do? Stomp off in a fit and go haunt some other life's nightmares? That'd be good. When does he leave human consciousness?Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9203 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
How would we know?
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
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How would we know? ICANT or some other knowitall will tell us.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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How would we know? Well, Tany hit it. In reality, nothing would change since it's just a fantasy. But, since THEY get to have theirs I claim the god-given right to mine. I say if the religion memes finally left the human meme-pool then there would be peace, glorious peace. All war and all acts of barbarity would cease and an era of enlightenment, intellect and social humanism would flower forever after. Or at least we'd have taken a step in that direction. Alas, alack, this universe will not conform to my fantasies any more than she does to theirs.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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candle2 Member Posts: 850 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
ICANT, you stated:
"It was not the blood of the bulls and goats that tookaway their sin but their obedience to obey God by doing what He said." ***The Old Covenant never listed going to heaven as areward for complying with their OC agreement. Read it yourself! If the Israelites lived up to the agreement, God promisedthen blessings of the the earth and flesh. That's all. He promised to: Give them land.Protect them from their enemies. Lots of children. Long physical life. Abundant crops. Provide them health and healing. The OC was signed with the blood of animals.An individual can slaughter all the animals they want, but it won't save them. The OC agreement expanded on the 10 Commandments,which had been in force since creation. It also covered issues such as personal injury; legal andproperty matters; how to worship God; etc.... Any matters discussed in Leviticus, Numbers, andDeuteronomy are relative to the OC deal found in Exodus 20-24 Hebrews 8:6 "But now He has obtained a more excellentministry, insomuch as He is also Mediator of a better Covenant, which was established on better promises. The better promises consists of eternal life as membersof the family of God. 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with thehouse of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." The laws, including His 10 Commandments, will not bedone away with. The exact opposite is true. They will be engraved in our mind and heart. Abraham, Noah, Moses, Elijah, David, and the other menof faith in the OT knew Jesus, and they had His Holy Spirit. Only those God called and enlightened in OT times werepromised eternal life, and rulership in His coming Kingdom. They accepted Christ's sacrifice centuries beforehand.
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Phat Member Posts: 18353 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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I CANT likely wont respond to you but I will.
I have charged you with being in a cult. They have convinced you, a former orphen, that you are now a member of the "God family" and they are that family.
C2 writes: So by telling you that you are a descendant of one of the ten tribes, you too will be called and enlightened and somehow you know a secret that a veteran Pastor such as I CANT has no clue about. Only those God called and enlightened in OT times werepromised eternal life, and rulership in His coming Kingdom. They accepted Christ's sacrifice centuries beforehand. Quit trying to show off and teach other Christians. We know as much as any leader in your church. What...you somehow think that your church has a higher truth than other churches? C'mon...get real.
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Phat Member Posts: 18353 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The Universe has no gender. Just sayin
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
How would you know? You abandoned her for this bad boy Satan of yours.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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candle2 Member Posts: 850 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Phat, you wrote:
"So by telling you that you are a descendant of one of theten tribes, you too will be called and enlightened and somehow you know a secret that a veteran Pastor such as I CANT has no clue about." Being a descendant of a tribe of Israel has nothing to doabout what I believe that the Bible teaches. It is not relevant. J.H.Allen, in his book "Judah's Scepter and Joseph'sBirthright" was what convinced me. This plus what I believe that Bible teaches. I believe the Bible teaches that God will give everyonewho has ever lived an opportunity to know Him. This includes those who have different religions, as well as those who have never even heard the name of Jesus. You and ICANT believe that those who have never evenheard the name of Jesus are in trouble. You seem to think that it is somehow their fault. I believe that after coming into the knowledge of Jesus,and after rejecting Him, that these individuals will be totally destroyed, that they will be left neither root nor branch. You and ICANT believe that those who reject Jesus,including those who never even heard of Him, will burn in a tortuous fire for eternity. Never does God show an ounce of mercy and compassion for them. I truly believe that what both you and ICANT teach issatanic. It makes God out to be the evil one. I believe that the Bible teaches that we can become sonsand daughters of God. We can become members of His family. Why would Jesus humble Himself by getting down on His knees and washing the feet of humans? Why would Jesus allow Himself to be severely beaten,and nailed to a stake, if we were not important to Him? You have admitted that you simply have mo idea whatwe can become. I stated that the Old Covenant did not promise theIsraelites eternal life. It was not a spiritual contract. Do not be upset with me for stating this. Simply openyour Bibles and prove me wrong. There is no reason for any of us to become angry.
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Phat Member Posts: 18353 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
OK, I looked him up. Before we go any further, let's clarify which church that you claim to belong to.
Is it This One? *Church of God (Holiness)* If so, I apologize for accusing you of associating with Herbert W. Armstrong. It appears that your church is quite conservative. I'm curious what Pastor ICANT says about them. Keep in mind that Pastor ICANT is an online friend much like many of the other members here at EvC. As you may have noted, they cannot stand him when he begins to talk about creationism vs evolution. I have no problem with him. I also have no problem with educated debate and discussion. One member in particular whom I respect is DWise1. He takes the time to explain himself rather than just shooing me off as some of the other members do.
candle2 writes: I won't take that as a personal attack but will use it as an opportunity for clarification. I have never made God out to be evil simply for giving humanity a clear choice. Some secular critics accuse Him (or me) of being evil simply for teaching that Hell is a possibility. I always defend myself by saying that I believe that God never directly created evil but only the possibility of evil. God never created an evil satan. He allowed an angelic Being to freely choose to rebel against His autonomy and become the decision that it chose. I truly believe that what both you and ICANT teach issatanic. It makes God out to be the evil one. I can't back that up with scripture and would ask your opinion of it. People are free to accept that a supernatural God exists or reject (and even mock) such a concept. On a practical level, Christianity and Christian belief are judged by secularists not only as being unproven and fantasy-based but through the political association of conservative Christians. I myself am a political moderate, but I note that you don't discuss politics too often and would encourage you to stick to your teaching with scripture. They (the secularists or humanists) will likely ignore you, but at least Percy allows freedom of speech and encourages us to support our arguments in our own words. I am often guilty of posting a source of information yet never discussing it much in my own words.
C2 writes: I believe the Bible teaches that God will give everyonewho has ever lived an opportunity to know Him. This includes those who have different religions, as well as those who have never even heard the name of Jesus. Thanks for clarifying. I would expect that you also believe that the word will not return void, which is why you like to quote scripture. I cant say that I disagree with such a concept, but I am no fan of raw data, evidence, and information. I believe that our characters count as much as anything else which is why I have stuck around EvC for twenty years. Tangle claims it is insulting for me to joke about "converting" him, but what he may not know is that through his character God may yet "convert" me!
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Phat,
Phat writes: I'm curious what Pastor ICANT says about them. I lived in Grand Cayman from 1989 until December 27, 2003. The church you referenced mentioned a church in Grand Cayman. If memory serves me right the church was built in 1999. I personally knew the Pastor that his church in Texas was instrumental in financing, building, and supporting the church. I attend the first sermon preached by him. He preached the gospel just like you have seen me post. His church was very strict on discipline of their members. We agreed on most things but they do not believe in the security of the believer. In other words you could be saved today and lost tomorrow. Paul tells us that when you have been enlightened if you could lose your salvation for you to be saved again Christ would have to come back and be crucified again.
quote: He refused to believe that passage, but he didn't baptize them every time they got saved. Go figure. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Phat Member Posts: 18353 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
In my view, God cant bring us back *if*we fall away. This brings up the question of what it means to fall away.
I would think that we only need saving once since salvation is a gift from God and not derived through works. Repentance should happen at least daily. In my mind, as long as I realize that I am no longer my own and was bought with a price, I won't fall away, though I will and do sin.
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