Choosing a faith

Still, it's good to be moving up. Sure, I think it is core to my Christian faith. You seem to hold the view that religion is simply about doing well in the next life. For me it's a road map for this life. I'll let God worry about what comes next and trust in His perfect justice. I'm confident that perfect judgement is concerned with our hearts and not our theology. How about the "spiritual but not religious groups". There are lots of theists that don't adhere to any religion. I don't know what verses you are referring to but Jesus only mention 2 people that have great faith. One was a Samaritan woman and one was a Roman Centurion. The social Gospel has always been a part of the Christian faith. I do think that we can look to Jesus as the "way" we should live; I do believe that Jesus displays the "truth" about God and I do believe that following Jesus give us "life" as God intended it. I don't disagree that many have taken that to be about the next life, but I contend that is taking it beyond what was intended. Probably true but it should not be the primary message. Firstly, go ahead and quote chapter and verse. Secondly, I'm hardly alone. My views are actually pretty close to the early church before Rome got involved as written about by Alan Kreider in his bookThe Patient Ferment. Also I'm something of a fan of people like Rob Bell and Brian McLaren and the THe Emerging ChurchHave none. Just observational.

That's nonsense. Emotion may well be a factor but we can also look at what we do know, and the study what others have to say and research by whatever other means are available to form a conclusion.I've got shelves of books that I've read with a wide variety of views, I've done a lot of internet research including people, and yes I have read people like Hitchens, Dawkins etc to come to the conclusion that I have, regarding my faith. I don't have absolute knowledge but it is my best effort to come to the truth. Absolutely, but they also work to confirm what they believe is correct. When you vote in an election you form a conclusion about who will provide the best government. You don't know but you study the situation and form a conclusion. You don't know if you made the right choice or not but go with what you believe.

KInda close but I don't see it as being about leading a decent life. The thigs that we do or don't do are symptoms of what matters. What matters is our hearts and minds. Do we really do the things we do because we actually care about others or do we do it for show or maybe to relieve a guilty conscience? There are also all those who have grown up in abusive situations and aren't in the position or can't mentally do the loving thing.
I don't have answers to all this but believe and trust in a deity that ultimately will exercise perfect judgement in the life to come.I would add, once again, that we should focus on what we can do to make this world a better place in this life and deal with the next one when it comes along. Sure but you can maybe understand my frustration when people assume what they think I believe as a Christian. In actuality I'm much more in line with the theology coming out of your country than I am with N. American theology. I'm going to let CS Lewis answer that. Here is a quote from his book "The Last Battle'. Aslan. the Glorious One" is a Christ figure and Tash is a figure representing evil, in case you aren't familiar. Aslan is responding to a soldier who had been serving Tash.

quote:

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I )Aslan) take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted.

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I just was finishing up a reply to you on the EVC site and then it disappeared. That is why I like to copy your post to a word document and the responding on world and the copy and paste to EVE. I guess it results in strange symbols in place of apostrophes. I agree except that I would replace fantasy with mythology. Why is “written evidence’ not evidence. Sure, you want to look at as much information as possible to assess the accuracy of what is written but it is still evidence. I would say that everything that is written that is intended to be understood as non-fiction is evidence. That does not exclude the conclusion that it is completely or partially fabricated. It was you that brought that passage up and then you say you’re not going to play Biblical apologetics with me, when I refute your point. The terrain is rugged around Masada but the mountains are on the east side of the Dead Sea, is more likely what Jesus was referring to.
BTW, I really enjoyed the videos. It’s been nearly 25 years since I climbed to the top of the Masada site. It’s interesting, and I’d never heard it before, that Josephus seems to have misrepresented what Happened to some degree by saying that they all committed suicide but apparently there was a battle at the top of the Roman ramp. Wittgenstein was an interesting guy. It is all new to me but his religious views were a little vague but not as dismissive as I understand your views. This is from a wiki site.

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Wittgenstein's relationship with Christianity and with religion in general, for which he always professed a sincere and devoted sympathy, would change over time, much like his philosophical ideas.[81] In 1912, Wittgenstein wrote to Russell saying that Mozart and Beethoven were the actual sons of God.[82] However, Wittgenstein resisted formal religion, saying it was hard for him to "bend the knee",[83] though his grandfather's beliefs continued to influence Wittgenstein – as he said, "I cannot help seeing every problem from a religious point of view."[84] Wittgenstein referred to Augustine of Hippo in his Philosophical Investigations. Philosophically, Wittgenstein's thought shows alignment with religious discourse.[85] For example, he would become one of the century's fiercest critics of scientism.[86] Wittgenstein's religious belief emerged during his service for the Austrian army in World War I,[87] and he was a devoted reader of Dostoevsky's and Tolstoy's religious writings.[88] He viewed his wartime experiences as a trial in which he strove to conform to the will of God, and in a journal entry from 29 April 1915, he writes:
Perhaps the nearness of death will bring me the light of life. May God enlighten me. I am a worm, but through God I become a man. God be with me. Amen.[89]
Around this time, Wittgenstein wrote that "Christianity is indeed the only sure way to happiness", but he rejected the idea that religious belief was merely thinking that a certain doctrine was true.[90] From this time on, Wittgenstein viewed religious faith as a way of living and opposed rational argumentation or proofs for God. With age, a deepening personal spirituality led to several elucidations and clarifications, as he untangled language problems in religion—attacking, for example, the temptation to think of God's existence as a matter of scientific evidence.[91] In 1947, finding it more difficult to work, he wrote:
I have had a letter from an old friend in Austria, a priest. In it he says that he hopes my work will go well, if it should be God's will. Now that is all I want: if it should be God's will.

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I think that your assessment is well off the mark but I have gone over that several times already. I am fully aware that Ehrman rejects the resurrection as an historical event. I only mentioned him for his strong position that Jesus was an actual historical human being. Fine

You know that I will say that I prioritize #1 as well even if you don’t think that is the case. As for #2 it depends on the circumstances. In this case I don’t much care how long it takes. As for #3 I suppose we all have a bias but I try to stay focused on #1. As for #4 we all like a comforting feeling but I felt comfortable as an agnostic, as a cultural Christian and as a Christian. Couldn’t agree more No, hopefully the next life comes along for me later rather than sooner, but in the meantime I have been given this life to live and that is where my focus is. I’ll worry about the next life when I get there. I have done and continue to do all of that. Your problem is pretty much the same for all of you here, and that is that you can’t conceive of anyone looking at things and coming to a different conclusion than yourself. That holds true for you as well. You are not in a position to know that. I have spent a considerable amount of time to get to the truth of the matter well knowing full well that the truth I come to may not be the truth. I have spent thousands of hours reading different views on the subject and have seen those views often changing with additional ideas.I’ll go ahead on the assumption that you are a materialist or something close. You’re comfortable (#4) with that position as you can look at natural processes and can’t see anything that you consider as evidence of anything beyond that material. You are quite happy with the idea that conscious, and even sentient life can arise out of raw material by chance. I assume you mean the scientific method which can only examine the material. OK. Are we the result of mindlessness or are we the result of a pre-existing intelligence? We can scientifically examine and test all the evolutionary, chemical or any other process we want but that does not answer the question. That is an unevidenced conclusion. I look at the fact that life exists as it does and come to the unevidenced conclusion that we are the result of a pre-existing intelligence. I think that it is worthwhile investigating the question of the existence of God even knowing that whatever conclusion we come to we can’t prove it. We all have questions and we all decide what questions are important enough to us to work at coming to a conclusion. It’s a bit like when we have an election. Some people vote for a candidate for trivial reasons, some because of loyalty to a party and some because they make the time and effort to discern the character of a candidate and his/her policies. We all prioritize what it is that is important to us. In my case the existence or the non-existence of God is important to me so that is what I have largely focused on.

Which of course is based on the fact that I don't agree with you.

It isn't about being a decent person. It is about being a loving person and specifically one who is prepared to love sacrificially. The thing about Christianity is for one thing it should cause one to realize that the ability to love is a gift from God and it isn't just because you're a great guy. It helps keep you humble. Also it makes one grateful for the gift of life itself. Also through that knowledge and prayer it provides a path to being a more loving, humble, kinder and forgiving person than you would have been otherwise. C'mon, it's not long or hard. I've gone through several long documents from you guys on this forum. I even printed it all out for you and gave you background.

We have the writings of Joseph Smith. I would consider that as evidence that I have rejected. As far as the Bible goes I find some validation in the writings of the patristic fathers and in the Epistles for that matter. I realize that you don't see that as sufficient validation. Thanks. I'll remember that. Most of the time as in this case I just use the EVC site, but for longer posts, such as pretty much every post by Stile I like to use word. Sorry I thought it was you that brought it up initially but I guess it was someone else. After over 1700 posts I can't remember who said what. I think that you're correct.

Agreed
​ Can't argue with that.

Firstly I doubt that there are many good outcomes form bad intentions. And certainly far more good outcomes from good intentions. Also there is a generally consensus that we should all live by the golden rule and that isn't going happen if we live a life of making bad decisions for selfish reasons. Specifically as a Christian, it is my belief that is what we are called to. Agreed.

Let's look at the topic in question. Most of you, as near as I can tell, are atheists but most of you also admit to the possibility that God exists. however you don't believe that He does exist because there is no evidence for His existence. I assume then that lack of evidence is evidence that He doesn't exist. What evidence is it that this best known method gives you? I suppose so but I don't see a god like that. Christians die of cancer just like everyone else. I accept the resurrection as an historical event. I find the Gospel accounts, along with other early writers and the rise of the early Christian church to be compelling. If there was actual evidence that the resurrection wasn't historical then I would no longer profess the Christian faith. I am seeking the "truth" or #1 just as much as you do. We have come to different conclusions. Yes, and it took intelligence to learn about the natural processes but you still maintain that all that we have discovered, and what we have left to discover, with human intelligence over centuries just happened by chance.All of those discoveries, like evolution, describe incredibly complex and even beautiful processes that scream out the necessity of an intelligent root. Firstly that isn't the point. No matter how many processes you discover it doesn't say anything as to whether or not it was intelligently caused. Let's say that we manage to do ourselves in through some virus or though nuclear weapons. Further to that, only the AI that we invented continued and then grew to become sentient over millions of years. That new life could very well conclude that it just happened by extreme good fortune without any need or material evidence of an intelligent root. Why do we want to know if there is water on Mars? It seems to me that the existence of a deity has to be at least as important as that. Well you know I disagree and that you don't accept that my priority is #1. I disagree.

Then you would consider buying a homeless person a meal martyrdom. Is sending aid to help someone in an impoverished nation martyrdom; is visiting a sick person martyrdom; is cheerfully brightening up the day for a check-out person at the grocery store martyrdom; and is working to help refugees in a camp to immigrate, and then helping support them martyrdom? Obviously I could go on. I have no idea of why you would see that as martyrdom. Do you not accept the belief that those actions are positive? You asked the question so what else did you expect?​

That sort of response is too often typical of the responses around here. You are the host and moderator of this site. Pretty pathetic. Once again insult and put down masquerading as an argument.I was asked a question and answered with what I believe which is pretty consistent with most Christians. Do you want to keep this as a forum for anti-theists only, or do you want it to include the views of those who don't agree with your anti-theist beliefs?

It was a disgrace. I would question the good intentions though. The objective was to resolve a political problem and assimilation was the easiest way to do it. Our church borders on First Nations land and has done a lot of work towards reconciliation as very distinct from assimilation. Every service we have starts with the acknowledgement for we are on the ancestral lands of the specific first nations bands.[qs=You want to demonstrate your love of your fellow man? How about a mission to a poor Islamic community where there's no hint, not ever, that the help comes from Christian charities. And you work for years and decades to build and strengthen this Islamic community with selfless disregard for how its success compares to Christian communities.[/qs] Our church worked to sponsor 2 Islamic families as refugees and supported them with housing and food and helped them find work. They are doing well.One thing that happened was that we had a wine fest to help fund 3 local charities of which none were Christian based. At this wine fest a couple of the Islamic teenagers came over to help set things up. They got talking to a lady working who was very friendly and who asked them where they had come from which was Syria. She expressed remorse for the pain that they and their country had and still was going through. The Islamic teenagers asked about her background only to find out that she was Jewish. They were startled as they hadn't met a Jewish person before and they did not anticipate her being so kind to them. When they went home they told their father about the occurrence and he in turned called the church to ask for her phone number so that he could invite this Jewish woman to their home for dinner, which happened.The church, with exceptions I agree, is about bringing people of all beliefs together around the message of love your neighbour which can be found in at least all the major religions and also the the non-religious communities.If you read my signature you can see that there is no mention of belief in any specific doctrine but is all about humble kindness and mercy.

The consensus is formed because of the call on all humanity.