Choosing a faith

Oh right. Now we're into martyrdom. How far down this redemption complex do we need to go? And now the pious waffle.Yes you believe all this stuff, fine, so much we know, it's kind of revolting but I'll get over it. What I'm trying to get at is why all this ingratiation is necessary? You tell us that people do not need to do it nor even be a Christian in order to satisfy God's criteria. It seems to me that your martyrdom cult is more than a little self-serving.

Data from the Federal Bureau of Prisons tells us that atheists commit crimes at much lower rates than the general population, of whom 63% are Christian. So much for your "being a loving person...prepared to love sacrificially" being transformative or even true.I understand that you're by yourself in this and it feels like people just don't understand and that that's difficult, but getting up on your pontifical high horse isn't going to help.--Percy

We have the writings of Joseph Smith. I would consider that as evidence that I have rejected. As far as the Bible goes I find some validation in the writings of the patristic fathers and in the Epistles for that matter. I realize that you don't see that as sufficient validation. Thanks. I'll remember that. Most of the time as in this case I just use the EVC site, but for longer posts, such as pretty much every post by Stile I like to use word. Sorry I thought it was you that brought it up initially but I guess it was someone else. After over 1700 posts I can't remember who said what. I think that you're correct.

Agreed
​ Can't argue with that.

This just restates your position and offers no supporting arguments in favor or rebuttals of my own position. Far better to call the Book of Mormon writings with no evidential support. Just putting words to paper doesn't magically transform something into evidence. See what as "sufficient validation"? You haven't offered any validation, and concerning epistles, we know now that roughly half of Paul's epistles are fakes. What validation are you talking about? Usually validating something involves evidence, so what is the evidence?And to ask the same question I've asked before, why do you feel you need evidence for what you believe? Where is faith in your belief system? You don't have to remember. I know I don't. But the posts are still there to review, and there's a search facility. I didn't remember it was you who said it in Message 1352. But what you quoted didn't feel like the way I normally say things, and I wondered why I would have said something like that, so I did a search and found that you originally said it in Message 1352.--Percy

Firstly I doubt that there are many good outcomes form bad intentions. And certainly far more good outcomes from good intentions. Also there is a generally consensus that we should all live by the golden rule and that isn't going happen if we live a life of making bad decisions for selfish reasons. Specifically as a Christian, it is my belief that is what we are called to. Agreed.

If there's a way to miss a point you'll find it.The point wasn't that there lots of good outcomes from bad intentions. No one's arguing that. The point was that the intentions, good or bad, don't matter if the outcome is bad.For an example of a spectacularly bad outcome from good intentions you need look no further than your own country's treatment of its indigenous peoples. It's almost as if Canada asked itself, "How can we outdo the United States in cruel treatment of indigenous peoples while being more insidious and more thorough?"The residential school system was active for more than a century and was a key part of Canada's efforts to wipe out entire nations. Hitler was only in power for 15 years or so and only attempted to wipe out two nations (Jews and Roma). Canada's goal with legislation such as the Gradual Civilization Act and the Indian Act had the explicitly well-intentioned goal of complete assimilation and elimination of its indigenous peoples by turning them into Canadians. This is a wonderful statement of what drives good Christians to do bad things. You want to do unto others as you would have others do unto you. One thing Christians would like others to do unto them is to reinforce and strengthen their Christianity. They think that what Christians consider best for themselves is what is best for everyone. And from that one idea has sprung endless evil.You are a willing, nay, enthusiastic participant in an institution that has been insidiously promulgating evil in the name of good for millennia. Yeah, you engage in good works like helping the poor, but not before you've found some way of communicating your message of the loving grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ. "Come, oh poor soul, abandon your religion and culture and join ours and your life will be made better. You'll be saved and live for eternity in God's loving embrace. Oh, you're still poor? Well, don't worry about that, just remember the part about God and Jesus."You want to demonstrate your love of your fellow man? How about a mission to a poor Islamic community where there's no hint, not ever, that the help comes from Christian charities. And you work for years and decades to build and strengthen this Islamic community with selfless disregard for how its success compares to Christian communities.Think that could ever happen? Do you think questions from within your own Christian community won't be asked like, "How could you help that Islamic community when there are Christian communities in greater suffering? And you're not even spreading the gospel - what's wrong with you?"Christianity doesn't make better people. Nothing makes better people. What Christianity does is give people a good excuse to do evil in the name of good.--Percy

Few people in the world I truly hate. I hate missionaries.

If there is a "general consensus", why do we have to be "called" to do it?

*cough* original sin *cough*... Your original sin is throwing Jesus away and declaring secular evidence based thinking as a superior model. There is still time to repent, though. God forbid *you* become a goat.

I think that mindfulness and self awareness, coupled with honesty does in fact make better people.

Let's look at the topic in question. Most of you, as near as I can tell, are atheists but most of you also admit to the possibility that God exists. however you don't believe that He does exist because there is no evidence for His existence. I assume then that lack of evidence is evidence that He doesn't exist. What evidence is it that this best known method gives you? I suppose so but I don't see a god like that. Christians die of cancer just like everyone else. I accept the resurrection as an historical event. I find the Gospel accounts, along with other early writers and the rise of the early Christian church to be compelling. If there was actual evidence that the resurrection wasn't historical then I would no longer profess the Christian faith. I am seeking the "truth" or #1 just as much as you do. We have come to different conclusions. Yes, and it took intelligence to learn about the natural processes but you still maintain that all that we have discovered, and what we have left to discover, with human intelligence over centuries just happened by chance.All of those discoveries, like evolution, describe incredibly complex and even beautiful processes that scream out the necessity of an intelligent root. Firstly that isn't the point. No matter how many processes you discover it doesn't say anything as to whether or not it was intelligently caused. Let's say that we manage to do ourselves in through some virus or though nuclear weapons. Further to that, only the AI that we invented continued and then grew to become sentient over millions of years. That new life could very well conclude that it just happened by extreme good fortune without any need or material evidence of an intelligent root. Why do we want to know if there is water on Mars? It seems to me that the existence of a deity has to be at least as important as that. Well you know I disagree and that you don't accept that my priority is #1. I disagree.

Then you would consider buying a homeless person a meal martyrdom. Is sending aid to help someone in an impoverished nation martyrdom; is visiting a sick person martyrdom; is cheerfully brightening up the day for a check-out person at the grocery store martyrdom; and is working to help refugees in a camp to immigrate, and then helping support them martyrdom? Obviously I could go on. I have no idea of why you would see that as martyrdom. Do you not accept the belief that those actions are positive? You asked the question so what else did you expect?​

I'd consider doing those day-to-day things as simply being human and having consideration for others. What has smiling at a check out person got to do with "sacrificial love"? There's something deeply sickening about those words. Something really narcissistic.

And people like him have the audacity to expect we should accept the vile they spew.