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Author | Topic: Choosing a faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
OK. Here is the discussion.
PaulK writes: You say that but he was deliberately promoting himself as king.GDR writes: Yes, but He was never talking about an earthly king such as Herod. John in his Gospel writes this:
quote: I was clearly talking about what He said in front of Pilate ands no where did I suggest that this quote was from before He was arrested or as the reason He was arrested. It was simply about the Jewish authorities, giving Pilate a reason for Pilate to want Him crucified.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: You forgot to read in context. We were discussing reasons why the Priests might have considered Jesus a threat and had him arrested on that basis. Obviously a statement made by Jesus after he was arrested coukd not have been a factor.
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candle2 Member Posts: 850 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Pollux, if you notice in 2 Samuel 24:1, God's anger was
kindled against David. Just because God allows something, is not the same assaying God is the one who directly causes it to occur. Satan directly tempted David (1Chr. 24:1) to number Israel.However, David, of his own free will, decided to give in to temptation, and God allowed it to happen. God allows us to sin against Him. Perhaps, David didn't conduct the cencus according toGod's instructions in Exodus 30. According to Exodus 30, a small offering of half a shekelwas required of everyone (age 20 & over) who was counted. Before The death of Christ, the money was counted inorder to act as a ransom for their lives. It was a symbolic atonement for their lives. Theoney would be set aside and used specifically forworship to God. Perhaps. David did not instruct the Israelites to do this, orperhaps, many of the Israelites refused to do so. The laws of God were drilled into every Israelites, evenat an early age. They all knew about the offering. Collectively, Israel was redeemed as a family. Their fatewas held for all of them. Satan cannot read minds. He is nor omnipresent, omnipotent,or omniscient. In the video that I posted you can see beginning at 22:40through 27:30 the many posters that the magicians themselves designed showing demons whispering in their ears. The magicians can hear them. The magician and thedemon must both know what is about to happen. If we heard them whispering in our ears, we would thinkthat we were delusional. Satan and his demons are much too tactful than this. Their messages seem to come from our own minds. And,sometimes they do, but not always. The other demons are of the same substance as Satan.They have the same ability to move in and out of dimensions. They have the same ability to manipulate the environment. Satan is simply on a higher level. They can only temp us with what we desire. And theyknow what those desires are for each of us. They watch us 24-7. We can become what was never offered them. That is tobecome the very sons of God. To be resurrected into God's family. And they hate us for this. Paul tell us to not give place to the devil. To not let thesun go down on our wrath. Satan can intensify these emotions. Eph. 4:26-27. I learned years ago to forgive people and to calm my angerbefore going to bed for the night.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
OK Here is the context.
GDR writes: No it wouldn't. Jesus had no army nor was He trying to recruit one. Aside from Jesus promoting the message of self giving love He had two political messages which He promoted strongly. The first was His message opposing violent revolution and promoting non-violent revolution with such commands as "love your enemy", turn the other cheek", and to "go the extra mile". His followers weren't soldiers but workers from the lower classes. The second was His anti-Temple movement calling it a "sen of thieves" and over turning the tables of the money changers. It is interesting to note the huge similarities between what Jesus was combatting with the corruption of the Temple and what Luther was up against 1500 years later. Part of all that was the Temple getting rich with things like demanding sacrifices to get right with God and the 16th century church using indulgences to curry favour with God. You replied;
PaulK writes: You say that but he was deliberately promoting himself as king. So I replied:
GDR writes: Yes, but He was never talking about an earthly king such as Herod. John in his Gospel writes this:quote: Jesus answered, “My Kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. If it were, my followers would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. But my Kingdom is not of this world.” So you brought up Jesus claiming Kingship. I replied to that by telling you what that meant and at no point did I ever claim that was one of the reasons he was arrested.I gave 2 reasons; 1/ Stirring up the population partly by saying that the Temple authorities had turned the Temple into a "den of thieves". 2/ Overturning the tables of the money changers and his other action in the Temple. This was about Jesus coming up with a reason that Pilate would want to have Him crucified, which was at His trial after the arrest. I never claimed that to be a reason for His arrest. You have claimed that I ignored Jesus' Temple action, and you have claimed that I gave John 18:36 as a reason for His arrest. Neither is true.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
You see Phat, pure fruit and nut.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. |
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5
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quote: Obviously you haven’t even understood the point - you were trying to DENY that was one of the reasons he was arrested. And if you bothered to read further back you would have seen this:
As for the rest, I see nothing to change my mind. If Jesus said anything along those lines - which we can’t know - it is quite plausible that the priests thought him a violent revolutionary who intended to have them all killed.
Which of course would make it a good reason to have Jesus arrested - and Mark 12:12 even claims that that speech was the reason the Priests decided to have Jesus arrested. As I said, you need to read in context.
quote: In fact you originally claimed:
The biggest single reason that the Jewish elite crucified Jesus was that He heavily criticized the temple authorities up to calling it a den of thieves.
Message 2670 Note that this contradicts Mark 12 and does not mention Jesus’ violence in the Temple courtyard at all.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
PaulK writes: So are you saying that you think my points irrelevant? Whose thread is this anyway? You have a history of coming into faith based threads and mucking them up. (And yet Im not ignoring you.)Being an atheist, you are the one who is ignoring the suggestion that Jesus actually is the one true Gods Son. Which you deliberately ignore. If you want to head off on your own rabbit trail, why not just start a new thread? Which I can happily ignore. It is irrelevant who holds the land deed to the Temple. Satan is the god of this world.It is irrelevant what zeal and violence Jesus incited inside His own Fathers House. He never killed anyone. Again I ask you what you would do to squatters on your property? This topic is about choosing a faith. Neither you nor Theodoric have one. So what are you doing here?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
The story clearly shows it was not his property and the people there were not squatters. But then we don't know the laws of this fantasy Roman world
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Pollux Member Posts: 303 Joined: |
Hi candle2
Let’s see if I’ve got it. Satan can’t read minds but he knows what he’s doing when he messes with our mind. He is not omniscient but he can monitor the activities of huge numbers of people. Or is the correct answer to “How does Satan tempt us?” “ I don’t know “?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5
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quote: I am pointing out that they are irrelevant to the conversation you are butting into, and that I personally do not want to discuss them.
quote: It isn’t yours and even if it was your rudeness does not require me to talk about the subjects you personally want to discuss.
quote:I do not believe that I have ever done that. quote: I do not ignore that assertion, I reject it.
quote: Perhaps you can explain why a person who supposedly teaches non-violence resorts to fruitless violence. That at least is a question which does not hinge on your faith commitments.
quote: I came here to comment on the topic. Even if the discussion has drifted since then my d contribution to that has been relatively small - at least I am answering GDR who started the thread rather than trying to bully other posters into talking about what I want them to talk about.
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candle2 Member Posts: 850 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Pollux, it is not that difficult to figure out. I know exactly
how Satan works. I cannot understand why you are having such difficultywith it. Not trying to cut you down, really. But, it seems rather simple.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Theo writes: Correct. I was attempting to use an analogy which supported, if not justified Jesus violent reaction inside His "family" home. We Christians who somewhat know our Bibles often speculate what meaning might have been behind a story in our Holy Book. Within the community-at-large who call themselves Christians, there are many varieties of us. Honestly as you well know, many are dishonest. Some do not even know Jesus. (old jar would always ask me what that even meant! ) EvC has science threads where everything requires objective and unbiased evidence. We also have a Bible Accuracy and Innerrancy thread where the Bible is often put on trial through objective scholarly analysis. That too is in the science forum department. The story clearly shows it was not his property and the people there were not squatters. If I go way back to the start of this thread, GDR framed his initial reasons for starting this thread.
GDR:None of us here at this forum fully understand each other. I have often been guilty of reacting rather than responding to criticism, as to lesser degrees have we all. We are human and we often insert our emotions into logically based arguments. Theo writes:
You and PaulK are critical thinkers by definition and practice. GDR and I, though different, are faith filled romantics. We strive to not be fantasy driven. As you might imagine, that can often be difficult for believers. Our romance, if I can label it as such, is with the character of Jesus Christ. But then we don't know the laws of this fantasy Roman world Lets keep that fact in perspective as we attempt to communicate with atheists who are often thrown off by our passion to defend our faith. Though it is fair game to introduce logic and facts as you know them, keep in mind that this thread was started in Faith & Belief and is not governed by evidence and logic to the exclusion of passion for the stories and a desire to share passion and not necessarily cold and lifeless objectivity.GDR often tries to play both sides against the middle, attempting to agree with you while maintaining his integrity. PaulK calls him out on this, and I joined in...not realizing I was unwelcome. But as to your comment, what do you mean "fantasy" Roman World? Do you mean the apologetic believers narrative in general or do you mean something else?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Irrelevant to the current conversation.
But as to your comment, what do you mean "fantasy" Roman World?
The Roman World of the bible does not represent the reality of the historical Roman World.What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
PaulK writes:
Mark 12:12 has the Temple authorities being afraid of the crowd of Jesus followers. They fear the crowd in that setting. Note that this contradicts Mark 12 and does not mention Jesus’ violence in the Temple courtyard at all.Their concern was that Jesus was stirring up problems for them by denouncing the corruption in the Temple and as a result it would be very likely that the citizens would cease buying doves and other animals for sacrifice and cease the need for the money changers as well. His Temple action of overturning the tables of the money changers and of those selling doves was a symbolic action denouncing the corruption and what Jesus considered to be a contradiction to the desire and nature Yahweh. He quoting, quoting Isaiah 56:7 says that the Temple was to be a house of prayer but that they had made it a den of thieves. If you want to call Jesus violent because He overturned the tables and made life difficult for them for a short period of time that's fine. However, it certainly pales in contrast to the violence that he was denouncing and was endemic in that world. I have no idea what else you are looking for beyond that than going around and around trying to score some meaningless debating points.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: That is simply your interpretation - and a biased one at that. But it is still the case that Mark attributes the decision to that speech - which includes accusations of murder and implicit death threats.
quote: That it was an act of violence is simple fact. And acts of violence are inconsistent with a rejection of violence.
quote: That seems to be more your style.
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