Choosing a faith

One word. Evidence. That is their favorite word. In fact, they could turn your line of reasoning around on you and ask how you know that the Bible is accurate.They may argue that you accept as fact that Genesis, written 4500 years ago, is factual.If you tell them that they need to turn or burn, that hardly helps your case...unless the world suddenly begins burning and people fear for their lives. In all likelihood, the majority at that point will not only trust science and secular (non-religious) unity but they will trust
godless humanists who will at that time devise a plan for global survival.

Actually Phat, we'll just think he's another nutter.
Which he is - even by your standards.

Pollux, I'll tell you how Satan tempts the world. But, what
he does better than that is his amazing ability to deceive.Revelations 12:9 tell us that he deceives the whole world.
Furthermore. He has an army of organized demons, who
see what we do.They know all of our weaknesses, and they are absolutely
dedicated to their task of separating us from GodLook at this board. Some stick to a belief that life came
about simply by blind chance. How can anyone believe
this, especially since we now understand how complex the
simple cell is. And not only complex, but specific complexity.How can so many Americans (western societies) believe
that a man can become a woman and vice-versa. Many
are deceived because of Satan's amazing ability to deceive.Not only does Satan have an army of demons to assist
him, they never sleep.Satan talked to Eve. He not only appealed to her lust for
the forbidden fruit; He also deceived her.He told her part truth in that her eyes would be opened,
but he lied when he said that she would not die as a
result of disobeying God. Read 2 Cor.11:3.Satan even tempted Jesus by appealing to His human
needs.Satan and his minion are all around us. They whisper in
our ears.Check out this video on Youtube:"Demon Magicians Exposed"There are places in the video where posters of these
magicians are shown with demons whispering in
their ears.Some make light of these magic tricks, but many of
them are impossible to fake.Look at the magicians hold up their hands and see
cards automatically appear in their hands out of thin
air. Practice stopping the video and you will see
exactly what I mean.These magicians sell themselves to demons in order
to gain what they desire most, which is fame, fortune,
and power.In the Arab countries it is referred to as Jenn magic.
This is where the Genie in the lamp came from.I thought that I would post you a short response, but
I soon realized a short response would not suffice.I have some business to take care of. I will finish after
I am done with it.

That's a little hard to refute as there is no such verse.
However, The Kingdom in Daniel 7:13-14 is clearly a Kingdom that is Kingdom from God's heavenly dimension for us on Earth, that extends infinitely and is made up of those who follows Christ's message of love, peace and forgiveness. Sure it's all wrapped up in early Jewish apocryphal language but it gives us a metaphorical picture of what God is doing through Jesus. The problem wasn't the sacrifices themselves. The problem was how the Temple authorities and the money changers were using the sacrifices as a tool to extract money from those that were already poor, like the widows that Jesus mentions. You do like to go down rabbit trails don't you. Again, as an aside, He did say that He desired mercy not sacrifice, although I don't see that as the reason for His denunciation of the Temple authorities. The undertones of violence come from understanding the Scriptures with a 21st century understanding as opposed to how the original target audience would understand it.His anti-violence message was primarily aimed at those who were promoting a militant revolution. He all denounced the public stoning of the woman caught in adultery. This was again about His message opposing violent revolution. It wasn't about a literal sword but about the deep cleavage in the population that would result from His message of non-violence. However, right after that when they say between the whole group that they have two swords Jesus say that's sufficient. He isn't saying that they should all carry a sword. I tend to think that Luke is saying He was getting fed up with them as they seemed to never quite understand what He was about. They always seemed to think that God was with Him and that He would call down an army of angels or something to defeat the Romans. Even after the resurrection in the 1st Chapter of Acts we can see that they still saw this as a possibility. As Luke and Acts were both by the same author it adds credence to that interpretation of what Jesus meant in your quote.Also of course later as He is being arrested He tells Peter to put away His sword and says the "he who draw the sword, die by the sword". I agree. I understood you to be using this as an example of Jesus promoting violence. With all of the people crucified by the Romans over the years it is a pretty trivial thing and Josephus' book is pretty long as it is. For that matter if that tiny little part of the Gospels was removed it wouldn't make any difference to the narrative. There is no reason whatsoever to make that up so I think we can take it at face value. Yes, but Herod had influence as well, but it was the Romans that kept him in his position as he would do as instructed.

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That's a little hard to refute as there is no such verse.
However, The Kingdom in Daniel 7:13-14 is clearly a Kingdom that is Kingdom from God's heavenly dimension for us on Earth, that extends infinitely and is made up of those who follows Christ's message of love, peace and forgiveness. Sure it's all wrapped up in early Jewish apocryphal language but it gives us a metaphorical picture of what God is doing through Jesus.

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It is also clearly when the Jews will be the dominant people on the Earth. Daniel 7:13-14 is part of a symbolic vision explained in the second half of the chapter. 7:27 is the relevant verse.

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The problem wasn't the sacrifices themselves. The problem was how the Temple authorities and the money changers were using the sacrifices as a tool to extract money from those that were already poor, like the widows that Jesus mentions. You do like to go down rabbit trails don't you.

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So inconvenient facts are “rabbit trails” now. Nevertheless even if there were abuses there is a distinction between a required observance and simply selling blessings for money.

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The undertones of violence come from understanding the Scriptures with a 21st century understanding as opposed to how the original target audience would understand it.

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I’d say that the opposite is the case. There is certainly no effort on your part to understand things as they would have been understood by a 1st Century Jew. As demonstrated by - among other things - your use of Daniel 7:13-14 imposing your own interpretation upon it.

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His anti-violence message was primarily aimed at those who were promoting a militant revolution. He all denounced the public stoning of the woman caught in adultery.

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A story known to be a late addition to the last Gospel written. I don’t see how you can count that as a core part of Jesus’ message

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This was again about His message opposing violent revolution. It wasn't about a literal sword but about the deep cleavage in the population that would result from His message of non-violence

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Again you are imposing your own interpretation on a verse which says that violence is the intended outcome of Jesus’ ministry.

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However, right after that when they say between the whole group that they have two swords Jesus say that's sufficient. He isn't saying that they should all carry a sword.

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People who have renounced violence do not need a weapon made for fighting.

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I understood you to be using this as an example of Jesus promoting violence.

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Then maybe you should learn to read more carefully.

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With all of the people crucified by the Romans over the years it is a pretty trivial thing and Josephus' book is pretty long as it is

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If it was a custom unique to Judaea it would be of considerable interest - an indication of Roman respect for Judaism. So no, it would only be trivial if it were normal for Roman officials to allow heinous criminals to be released on occasion - and to allow a subject people to choose which of them should be released. No, it is in all likelihood fiction.

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Yes, but Herod had influence as well, but it was the Romans that kept him in his position as he would do as instructed.

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Which Herod had what influence? And how is it relevant?

Hi PaulRather than going around and around on these things, can you please tell me what point you are trying to make. I know that as an atheist you are essentially critical of everything theistic, which is fair, but I'm not really clear about what you are trying to get at.Are you arguing for a Biblical picture of Jesus as someone who for violence in a revolution or in other situations?You seem intent on attacking anything I say so I'd just like to know what your thinking is.

The original point I was trying to make is that your assertion that the Priests had Jesus arrested for merely calling the Temple a “den of thieves” was completely untenable - and you have no excuse for not knowing that.There is no way you could be unaware that all the Gospels state that Jesus violently attacked the businesses operating in the Temple courtyard - it is a very well-known story. Yet you simply pushed it under the rug.

So who did the temple belong to?

The people

The Priests?

The Father of Jesus?

None of the above

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What say you, PaulK?

Did the temple belong to the businesses or did the businesses have a right be in the Temple?

Why would Joseph own the temple?
The people? What are you some sort of Commie?Do you know anything about Roman or Herodic ownership laws?
By "belong to" you seem to be conflating symbolically and metaphorically with legally. Thus your question is meaningless and irrelevant.

Why would it matter? Whatever answer you prefer, GDR was still wrong to try and sweep it under the carpet.

The businesses were supplying things needed by visitors to the Temple and had permission to be there.

Pollux, Satan is not only the god of this age, he is also the
prince of the power of the air. Once an individual has
tuned into his frequency, the individual falls even more
under Satan's influence.Satan puts desires into our heart. He put the desire in
The heart of Judas to betray Jesus. John 23:2.Satan filled the hearts of Ananais and Sapphira to lie to
both Peter and God. Acts 5:3.Even David, who was a man after God's on heart, fell
under the influence of Satan. Read 1 Chronicles 21:1.
David took a census after God told him not to.Satan intensifies our weaknesses. And he is no slouch.
For him to think that he could defy God and win shows us
just how powerful he is.Temptation pits one value against another. It might lead
one to lie in order to get a promotion.This pits our honesty against career success.We are tempted ever day. It could be temptation (with
demons whispering in our ears) of lying; gossiping;
stealing; cheating; jealousy; or, spending too much.Look at how many in America feel entitled. Not only does
Satan lead many to feel this way, he also puts thoughts
into our heads to justify how we feel.Satan also Temps us to cheat on our spouse. He tempts
us to with alcohol and drugs. He also tempts us into
risky behavior.Satan also controls Hollywood and the music industry.
Through these mediums he leads us to worship them
and their values. Prince of the power of the air.He deceives world leaders into going to war with each
other, while he sits back at laughs at our stupidity.Everyone has their desires. It is in the human nature.
Anyone who says he doesn't is lying.Overcoming our temptations can enhance our character.
It can lead to better self-control and discipline.Without facing temptation it would be impossible for us
to develop Godly character.Satan's combination to both deceive and to tempt us has
caused the world untold misery.Matthew 24 tell us that when Satan knows his time as the
ruler of this world is short that his fury will increase.He will push the entire world into a war that no one would
survive if Christ delayed His coming.

Here is a quote from post number 2735 in this thread

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The second was His anti-Temple movement calling it a "den of thieves" and over turning the tables of the money changers. It is interesting to note the huge similarities between what Jesus was combatting with the corruption of the Temple and what Luther was up against 1500 years later. Part of all that was the Temple getting rich with things like demanding sacrifices to get right with God and the 16th century church using indulgences to curry favour with God.

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Why would youi go on arguing about something I posted and agree with.

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Why would youi go on arguing about something I posted and agree with.

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I was answering your objections to subsidiary points of course. And pointing out a number of further errors on your part.Off-handedly conceding the point with no omission of error - especially when it looks more like dishonesty than mistake - does not mean that I should concede everything else you say.