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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9202
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 2281 of 3694 (909391)
04-02-2023 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 2280 by Tangle
04-02-2023 4:27 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Gatrointestinal distress

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2280 by Tangle, posted 04-02-2023 4:27 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2282 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-02-2023 11:54 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4451
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 2282 of 3694 (909395)
04-02-2023 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 2281 by Theodoric
04-02-2023 9:19 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
God damned farts!

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2281 by Theodoric, posted 04-02-2023 9:19 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 2283 of 3694 (909449)
04-04-2023 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 2277 by GDR
04-01-2023 7:41 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
We might look at things in his life to try and figure out why, but other than for mental illness or damage to the brain it is simply surmising.
Like anything in the past.
We may not be able to find evidence, or perhaps we can.
Maybe there's a note detailing exactly what he was feeling and why he committed suicide.
Maybe he was very close with his wife and therapist and was denied assisted-suicide from the government and it's clear he decided to take matters into his own hands anyway.
There can be lots of evidence on why he committed suicide.
Or none.
None of this points in the direction of a God in any way.
Just like finding a gucci bag in the middle of the jungle.
There might be lots of evidence why it's there - like flight overhead reporting a malfunction and lost luggage. Or, perhaps there is no evidence.
Regardless - a gucci bag in the middle of the jungle does not support God existing.
Regardless - a man committing suicide does not support God existing.
I simply see that the most likely cause for the fact that we can rise above selfishness, or like I said previously the survival of the fittest is an external influence. Of course I don't have hard evidence but I do contend that it is the most likely answer.
"I simply see that the most likely cause for the fact that gravity exists is tiny angels push things together. Of course I don't have any hard evidence but I do contend that it is the most likely answer."
And reality disagrees with you.
We have massive amounts of evidence showing us that objects with mass attract each other - simply because that's how things-with-mass work. No support for any God included.
We have massive amounts of evidence showing us that we can rise above selfishness due to natural processes and evolution. No support for any God included.
You can "see" or "contend" or "desire" or "want" or believe" or "need" the answer to be something else as much as you'd like.
It doesn't make the evidence go away.
It doesn't change reality.
You're paddling upstream... not only are you missing your paddle, you don't even have a boat!
Your ignorance of the knowledge we have on the situation doesn't lend credence to your position. It just shows that you're going to believe whatever it is you want to believe instead of following the truth we've learned about reality. Which, really, puts you in a majority position. But, again, that doesn't change reality either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2277 by GDR, posted 04-01-2023 7:41 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2292 by GDR, posted 04-07-2023 8:09 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 2284 of 3694 (909455)
04-04-2023 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 2278 by GDR
04-01-2023 8:00 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
Where I do have a problem with science of the gaps thinking is when it is assumed that what can be examined materially will always ultimately provide and answer to a problem.
I don't assume such a thing.
Beyond that - I think that anyone who assumes such a thing doesn't know how Science works and what it's good at.
However, Science certainly is our currently best known method for finding answers about reality.
If anyone uses any other method for identifying answers about reality - they really need to answer "why would you do that?" Especially those who use other methods that are specifically known to be very bad at identifying answers about reality.
What should be noted is that "currently-best-known-method" is not the same as "the best there is or ever can be."
Really... this shouldn't have to be noted, as that's how english works... but, well, it seems like it needs to be noted as per your quote above.
In fact, I still think Science is a rather poor method for knowing things. There isn't even a way to know you're right!
But... getting "closer and closer" to what's right is what Science does... and it's been doing that really well for hundreds of years... and blowing away all the other methods that have been used for thousands of years.
It's results are impressive - in a comparative sense.
However, in an "overall" sense - it's results are still lacking.
I don't think any serious "searcher of truth" thinks assumes that "examining the material will always ultimately provide an answer to the problem."
I think that people see the results of science and assume "If I want to know something about reality - I should probably use our best-known-method-for-identifying-reality."
I do have a problem that when we look at processes such as evolution, and conclude that the reason for its existence is the fact that it exists.
Do you have this same problem with God?
Do you have this same problem with dirt on the bottom of your shoe?
Do you have this same problem with rain?
Do you have this same problem with the birds of spring?
Do you have this same problem with streams?
Do you have this same problem with rocks by the side of the road?
My point is that if there is anything else at all that you don't have this same problem with - it's more a matter of personal consistency within GDR than it is a problem with evolution.
If you do happen to have this same problem with everything including God Himself - then what makes you think it's actually a problem and not just something wrong with the way you think about things?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2278 by GDR, posted 04-01-2023 8:00 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2285 by Dredge, posted 04-05-2023 6:48 PM Stile has replied
 Message 2294 by Dredge, posted 04-08-2023 1:23 AM Stile has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 2285 of 3694 (909555)
04-05-2023 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 2284 by Stile
04-04-2023 9:01 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Stale writes:
Science certainly is our currently best known method for finding answers about reality.
Your comment amounts to a tautology: Science is methodological naturalism, and
according to you - an atheist - "reality" is methodological naturalism.
So what's you're saying is, "Methodological naturalism certainly is our currently best known method for finding answers about methodological naturalism."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2284 by Stile, posted 04-04-2023 9:01 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2286 by AZPaul3, posted 04-05-2023 7:06 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 2288 by Stile, posted 04-06-2023 8:22 AM Dredge has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8564
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 2286 of 3694 (909560)
04-05-2023 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 2285 by Dredge
04-05-2023 6:48 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Science is methodological naturalism, and
according to you - an atheist - "reality" is methodological naturalism.
Gawd you are just sooo classless. Is there ANYTHING you can't screw up?
Science is not an ontology, it is an epistemology.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2285 by Dredge, posted 04-05-2023 6:48 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2287 by Dredge, posted 04-05-2023 7:18 PM AZPaul3 has not replied
 Message 2289 by Dredge, posted 04-07-2023 10:14 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 2287 of 3694 (909561)
04-05-2023 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 2286 by AZPaul3
04-05-2023 7:06 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
APauling666 writes:
Science is not an ontology, fool
But ontology is science - it's the study of rebellious teeth, usually conducted by dentists.
it is an epistemology.
... which is the study of the numerous New Testament epistles.
So what's ya point?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2286 by AZPaul3, posted 04-05-2023 7:06 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(4)
Message 2288 of 3694 (909581)
04-06-2023 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 2285 by Dredge
04-05-2023 6:48 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Dredge writes:
Your comment amounts to a tautology: Science is methodological naturalism, and
according to you - an atheist - "reality" is methodological naturalism.
It doesn't seem like you know what you're talking about.
That's not what those words mean. And nobody thinks that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2285 by Dredge, posted 04-05-2023 6:48 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 2289 of 3694 (909637)
04-07-2023 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 2286 by AZPaul3
04-05-2023 7:06 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
APauling666 writes:
Science is not an ontology, it is an epistemology.
Please explain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2286 by AZPaul3, posted 04-05-2023 7:06 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2290 by AZPaul3, posted 04-07-2023 11:13 AM Dredge has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8564
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 2290 of 3694 (909639)
04-07-2023 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 2289 by Dredge
04-07-2023 10:14 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
One is the study of the nature of what you may/do find, the other is the study of the ways of finding.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2289 by Dredge, posted 04-07-2023 10:14 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2295 by Dredge, posted 04-08-2023 1:58 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2291 of 3694 (909654)
04-07-2023 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 2280 by Tangle
04-02-2023 4:27 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
No, I'm contending that this so called still small voice of God is there influencing us to do the right and loving thing just as there are other natural influences and desires influencing us to do the selfish thing.
Tangle writes:
I still don't understand. How is your god influencing us if he's not directly influencing us?
We have numerous influences in our lives, some more subtle than others. Say that we observe someone dropping a wad money on the sidewalk. Do we run after him to return it or do we just happily jam it into our pocket.
There are no doubt numerous influences and experiences that pull is in one direction or the other. I am simply saying that the still small voice of God is one that would prompt us to run after they guy and return the money.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2280 by Tangle, posted 04-02-2023 4:27 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2299 by Tangle, posted 04-08-2023 3:30 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2292 of 3694 (909655)
04-07-2023 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 2283 by Stile
04-04-2023 8:19 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Stile writes:
Like anything in the past.
We may not be able to find evidence, or perhaps we can.

Maybe there's a note detailing exactly what he was feeling and why he committed suicide.
Maybe he was very close with his wife and therapist and was denied assisted-suicide from the government and it's clear he decided to take matters into his own hands anyway.

There can be lots of evidence on why he committed suicide.
Or none.

None of this points in the direction of a God in any way.

Just like finding a gucci bag in the middle of the jungle.
There might be lots of evidence why it's there - like flight overhead reporting a malfunction and lost luggage. Or, perhaps there is no evidence.

Regardless - a gucci bag in the middle of the jungle does not support God existing.
Regardless - a man committing suicide does not support God existing.
I'm not saying that it points to God. I'm saying that we can only surmise what causes people to do what they do. I do contend that the most likely probability for us being able to rise above evolutionary forces is an external non-material influence. I don't know that I'm correct and know that I can't point to any material evidence that I am correct, but I strongly believe it to be true. Philosophical; evidence, unlike scientific evidence can't conclusive b ut we can learn from the philosophers just the same.
Stile writes:
"I simply see that the most likely cause for the fact that gravity exists is tiny angels push things together. Of course I don't have any hard evidence but I do contend that it is the most likely answer."

And reality disagrees with you.

We have massive amounts of evidence showing us that objects with mass attract each other - simply because that's how things-with-mass work. No support for any God included.

We have massive amounts of evidence showing us that we can rise above selfishness due to natural processes and evolution. No support for any God included.

You can "see" or "contend" or "desire" or "want" or believe" or "need" the answer to be something else as much as you'd like.
It doesn't make the evidence go away.
It doesn't change reality.

You're paddling upstream... not only are you missing your paddle, you don't even have a boat!

Your ignorance of the knowledge we have on the situation doesn't lend credence to your position. It just shows that you're going to believe whatever it is you want to believe instead of following the truth we've learned about reality. Which, really, puts you in a majority position. But, again, that doesn't change reality either.
Sure our perceived reality exists and can often be verified but we can only surmise the answer to the question of why reality exists the way it does.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2283 by Stile, posted 04-04-2023 8:19 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2293 by PaulK, posted 04-08-2023 12:58 AM GDR has replied
 Message 2304 by Stile, posted 04-10-2023 9:05 AM GDR has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 2293 of 3694 (909657)
04-08-2023 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 2292 by GDR
04-07-2023 8:09 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
quote:
I'm not saying that it points to God. I'm saying that we can only surmise what causes people to do what they do. I do contend that the most likely probability for us being able to rise above evolutionary forces is an external non-material influence
But you haven’t shown any “rising” above “evolutionary forces”. All you’ve shown is that you misrepresent evolution and refuse to accept that you might be wrong. Clinging to - at best - wilful ignorance is not consistent with searching for the truth.
Obviously the truth is far less important to you than your belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2292 by GDR, posted 04-07-2023 8:09 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2306 by GDR, posted 04-11-2023 8:38 PM PaulK has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 2294 of 3694 (909658)
04-08-2023 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 2284 by Stile
04-04-2023 9:01 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Stale writes:
Science certainly is our currently best known method for finding answers about reality.
How do you determine what "reality" is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2284 by Stile, posted 04-04-2023 9:01 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2296 by AZPaul3, posted 04-08-2023 2:00 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 2305 by Stile, posted 04-10-2023 9:10 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 2295 of 3694 (909659)
04-08-2023 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 2290 by AZPaul3
04-07-2023 11:13 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
If the latter (reality) is determined by the former (science), they're the same thing and you have a tautology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2290 by AZPaul3, posted 04-07-2023 11:13 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2297 by AZPaul3, posted 04-08-2023 2:06 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 2298 by dwise1, posted 04-08-2023 3:09 AM Dredge has replied

  
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