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Author | Topic: Choosing a faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Stile writes:
Firstly I donate to both secular and religious charities. When our church brought in and supported Syrian refugees to Canada we didn't ask about their religious beliefs. Two of the three families were Islamic.
Which seems to align with what my article was saying: That secular institutions will provide help to everyone equally, and religious groups are much more likely to discriminate and only help those who are a part of their particular religion. Stile writes: If you'd like to agree that being religious does not change one's actions and ideas any more than being atheist does - then I certainly agree.The only reason I started down this route was because you seemed to indicate that being religious provided a certain outlook on life that wasn't obtainable otherwise. This is clearly bogus. Well I can say that becoming Christian certainly changed my outlook on life and on charitable giving.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Tangle writes: This is just Anglicanism and it's simply a way of the Church trying to stay relevant in societies that are rejecting it. Making up a gentler belief system isn't working though is it? People are abandoning it in two directions; in the West it's towards atheism, agnosticism and general disinterest and in the developing countries (and USA) it's moving towards fundamentalism. Justin Welby, your 'pope', has just been rejected by 25% of the Anglican community over blessing homosexual partnerships. ('Blessing' for god's sake! How primitive is that?). The history of your belief system is riddled with schism because it's based on nothing but what individuals prefer to believe at any one time. Frankly in my view that is a strength. I don't want a church where there is no room for disagreement. I know that I am not in agreement on many issues with other Anglicans and that is ok. Hopefully after discussing views we can learn from each other. NT Wright often says that about a third of what he teaches is wrong. The problem being that he doesn't know which third it is. I'm in the same boat except that the percentage is undoubtedly much higher and no doubt you believe that 30% to be 100% in my case. Frankly my views are often changing as I read a fair bit of theology by people much brighter than yours truly, including at times on this forum.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
GDR writes:
Of course it is.
Frankly in my view that is a strength.I don't want a church where there is no room for disagreement. I know that I am not in agreement on many issues with other Anglicans and that is ok. Hopefully after discussing views we can learn from each other.
There is no room for disagreement within dogma. A belief is a belief. That's why 25% of your church has just split from it and rejected its leader over same sex blessings. Note not even marriages. The nice European Anglicans actually want to perform same sex marriages but that is totally politically impossible. That's why there are over 30,000 different ‘Christian’ belief systems. You all have individual beliefs and coalesce around them. You make it up to suit. NT Wright often says that about a third of what he teaches is wrong. The problem being that he doesn't know which third it is. I'm in the same boat except that the percentage is undoubtedly much higher and no doubt you believe that 30% to be 100% in my case. It's 100% in Wright's case too. Because it's an unevidenced belief. He doesn't know which 30% because he doesn't know anything, he just believes some things and the things he believes are what the culture he was born into by chance taught him. He spends his life in confirmation bias, ‘interpreting' the tiny amount of data available to him in ways that please him. Frankly my views are often changing as I read a fair bit of theology by people much brighter than yours truly, including at times on this forum. But your views are based only on what you prefer to believe, not on fact. You completely ignore arguments that threaten your belief, they have no effect. Your core beliefs can't be touched because they're not formed from evidence they're formed a personal belief that you speak with god. All the rest is irrelevant.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Phat writes: Had I finished studying psychology instead of pursuing the spiritual path, I would be nowhere near as wise. Perhaps.Perhaps not. I suppose we'll never know, will we?
Smart, maybe. But never wise. And what is so "wise" about not being a psychologist that you think is unobtainable if one is a psychologist?To me - I see no reason why someone can't be a psychologist and also pursue a spiritual path - and also ignore things that don't exist, like God.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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GDR writes: Firstly I donate to both secular and religious charities. Fantastic.I always thought you were a good person. Well I can say that becoming Christian certainly changed my outlook on life and on charitable giving. Of course - your personal experience doesn't change the fact that atheists also have life-changing structures to their thoughts and outlook on life that also make them just as generous and loving and charitable, perhaps even more so. It's almost like people are all individuals, each with their own personal subjective ways to achieve the same subjective levels of spiritual enlightenment. All without any external intelligence or God acting on any of them at all. Really, what's the difference between a God that doesn't exist and a God that acts - absolutely always, in every and all situations - as if He doesn't exist?
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Stile writes: What is the source of all things? Go back as far as you can. (Lets explore the rabbit trail) I see no reason why someone can't be a psychologist and also pursue a spiritual path - and also ignore things that don't exist, like God.
While you are doing that, I will take the discipline of psychology and take it back as far as it will go. In college, years ago, I studied Psychology, Sociology, and Social Psychology. Does anyone know the difference between the three? I do.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Phat writes: What is the source of all things? Go back as far as you can. (Lets explore the rabbit trail) I don't know. But - if you're going to tell me it's God, without being able to link God to reality in any way, I'm going to know you're wrong. Because that's how being wrong works.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Linking God to reality encapsulates the essence of "Being Saved".
Not that i'm special. Heck, i'm the poster child for stupidity at times!
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Tangle writes: There is no room for disagreement within dogma. A belief is a belief. That's why 25% of your church has just split from it and rejected its leader over same sex blessings. Note not even marriages. The nice European Anglicans actually want to perform same sex marriages but that is totally politically impossible. That's why there are over 30,000 different ‘Christian’ belief systems. You all have individual beliefs and coalesce around them. You make it up to suit. It isn't about dogma. Here is the definition of dogma. "A principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true." I would suggest that there is only a very small part of the Christian church that sees there faith and beliefs as incontrovertibly true. The point of this thread was to make the point that it isn't the name of the deity that we serve, but the nature of the deity we serve. We have seen Christians prepared to start wars and we have seen Muslims, Hindus, atheists etc fight for love and peace. My belief is in a deity that loves and cares for us and wants us to reflect that same love into the world. Yes, I do see Jesus as being an example of one that perfectly modelled the nature of God, and I see confirmation in that in the belief that God resurrected Him. Yes, I believe the Gospel accounts of His resurrection, while acknowledging minor difference in the accounts, all affirming the bodily resurrection of Jesus. Still the clear and important part is God's loving and peaceful nature, and His wanting us to emulate that regardless of doctrine.
Tangle writes: But your views are based only on what you prefer to believe, not on fact. You completely ignore arguments that threaten your belief, they have no effect. Your core beliefs can't be touched because they're not formed from evidence they're formed a personal belief that you speak with god. All the rest is irrelevant. I don't ignore arguments that threaten my belief I simply don't agree with the conclusions drawn from those arguments. However, in some cases they have altered my views. You and others generally say that you have no beliefs, so you really have no position to defend. You simply reject the views and beliefs of others. Kinda the easy way out. However you still presumably have a world view of life based on something. Do you believe that your world view to be true?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Stile writes:
How do you know that God doesn't influence your thoughts? How do you know that the still small but intangible voice of God isn't influencing you? It's almost like people are all individuals, each with their own personal subjective ways to achieve the same subjective levels of spiritual enlightenment. All without any external intelligence or God acting on any of them at all.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9207 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4
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Wash, rinse, repeat
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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How do you know that God doesn't influence your thoughts? What makes you think it has? What makes you think it can? Other than your wishful thinking, why does this thought exist? Is there anything to indicate that such is possible?Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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How do you know that God doesn't influence your thoughts? I don't know. So what? There isn't anything I can do about it, so it doesn't seem to matter one way or the other.--> -->Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity --> -->
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
GDR writes: I would suggest that there is only a very small part of the Christian church that sees there faith and beliefs as incontrovertibly true. Really? Then why has 25% of just your sect just rejected its leader over a matter of doctrine? And why are there ANY schisms within your belief. You're denying reality.
The point of this thread was to make the point that it isn't the name of the deity that we serve but the nature of the deity we serve. I had great hopes for this. But it just turned into the usual 'I believe' crap.
We have seen Christians prepared to start wars and we have seen Muslims, Hindus, atheists etc fight for love and peace. My belief is in a deity that loves and cares for us and wants us to reflect that same love into the world. I also had great hopes for this, but youl failed to make the argument. You're belief is profoundly Christian and you avoid the problems of hate and suffering, you just can't take them on honestly. It's disappointing.
Yes, I do see Jesus as being an example of one that perfectly modelled the nature of God, and I see confirmation in that in the belief that God resurrected Him. Yes, I believe the Gospel accounts of His resurrection, while acknowledging minor difference in the accounts, all affirming the bodily resurrection of Jesus. Still the clear and important part is God's loving and peaceful nature, and His wanting us to emulate that regardless of doctrine. Yes, I do see Jesus as being an example of one that perfectly modelled the nature of God, and I see confirmation in that in the belief that God resurrected Him. Yes, I believe the Gospel accounts of His resurrection, while acknowledging minor difference in the accounts, all affirming the bodily resurrection of Jesus. Still the clear and important part is God's loving and peaceful nature, and His wanting us to emulate that regardless of doctrine. Then explain hate and suffering. Honestly.
You and others generally say that you have no beliefs, so you really have no position to defend. You simply reject the views and beliefs of others. Kinda the easy way out. However you still presumably have a world view of life based on something. Do you believe that your world view to be true? I need time to explain this. But you won't want to understand it; in my experience believers just can't or won't. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9207 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
As most of the religious, GDR suffers from willful ignorance
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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