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Author
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Topic: Choosing a faith
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 1126 of 3694 (900353)
10-26-2022 10:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 1124 by GDR
10-26-2022 5:09 PM
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Re: Camp Lake O' Fire.
GDR writes: I'm not sure how someone can exist in an eternal fire...
By a miracle, obviously.
GDR writes: It isn't about getting our theology correct. it is about having a heart and mind that is not completely self focussed, but is about having enough compassion for others that you are prepared to act on that sense of compassion.
Jesus doesn't seem to agree with you. He seems to be keeping score.
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1124 by GDR, posted 10-26-2022 5:09 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1129 by Phat, posted 10-27-2022 12:45 AM | | ringo has replied | | | Message 1170 by GDR, posted 10-29-2022 7:33 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 1127 of 3694 (900361)
10-27-2022 12:13 AM
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Reply to: Message 977 by ringo
10-13-2022 12:32 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
ringo, referring to 25:41 writes: YOU read it and tell us where you got the idea that Jesus doesn't condemn any human. First of all it says "then". Not now. You liberals think that once a goat always a goat. It also says depart from me you cursed. It does NOT imply that Jesus cursed them. The fact is, they cursed themselves. Finally, it implies that hell was created for the devil and his angels. Not humans. I would agree, however, that demonic spirits corrupt unrepentant humans and cause them to become goats. You are right that not all will repent and self-correct. They will bejudged by their behavior and by which inner demons they kept. Which make them cursed. Edited by Phat, : added expression
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 977 by ringo, posted 10-13-2022 12:32 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1137 by ringo, posted 10-27-2022 12:16 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 1128 of 3694 (900362)
10-27-2022 12:18 AM
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Reply to: Message 1122 by Percy
10-26-2022 9:41 AM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes: The effectiveness of indoctrination, especially of children, is well established. The durability of beliefs formed while young is also well established. Then why do we allow non-binary teachers? The fact is, when human skeletal remains are dug up at some future time, it will be clear which skeletons were male and which were female. Self-identification and feelings have NOTHING to do with it.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1122 by Percy, posted 10-26-2022 9:41 AM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 1129 of 3694 (900366)
10-27-2022 12:45 AM
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Reply to: Message 1126 by ringo
10-26-2022 10:13 PM
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Re: Camp Lake O' Fire.
ringo writes: Jesus doesn't seem to agree with you. He seems to be keeping score. Nonsense. The whole reason that Jesus came back was to keep the score from becoming a rout.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1126 by ringo, posted 10-26-2022 10:13 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1132 by Percy, posted 10-27-2022 8:35 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 1139 by ringo, posted 10-27-2022 12:23 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 5.4
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Message 1130 of 3694 (900372)
10-27-2022 8:17 AM
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Reply to: Message 1016 by GDR
10-17-2022 3:44 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: Tangle writes: It's the only one that fits with all known science. True, but then you have to assume a belief in materialism and that there is nothing beyond that which can't be investigated scientifically. You've got this wrong. Tangle expressed a tautology. Of course only evidence-based explanations comport with science. That's definitional and no assumptions are involved. But I think we all remain curious about how you explain your *something* that can't be investigated scientifically. It sounds like you're resorting to stuff like visions that appear to everyone present except the video camera, things that are apparent to people (who can tell us about these things) but that remain invisible in all ways to all manner of scientific instruments.
All anyone here has been able to tell me is that they have evidence of altruism evolving, and we can see that in human kind. I don't disagree with that and that is consistent with what I believe would happen if there was a God meme that, along with all the memes that come up naturally, is influencing lives. God as a meme. I think you've got it. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1016 by GDR, posted 10-17-2022 3:44 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1213 by GDR, posted 10-31-2022 1:57 PM | | Percy has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9208 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Message 1131 of 3694 (900374)
10-27-2022 8:27 AM
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Reply to: Message 1128 by Phat
10-27-2022 12:18 AM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Really? You still don't understand there is a difference between sex and gender. Transphobic too? I have a dear friend who have considered my niece for over 30 years. SHe is non-binary. She uses she/her pronouns, but identifies as non-gendered. For her, it is not a sexual thing. She has very limited sexual experience. It is just not something that drives and motivates her. Because of fucks like you she struggles every day with her mental health. Her father is also a very good friend. At the age of 54 she started gender reassignment. She has known since he was 12 that she identified as a girl. His parents were supportive but they had no money and that did not happen in the '70's. She has transitioned and identifies completely as a woman, but is still in a long term (19 year) relationship with a woman. She was always happy seeming, but now she is gloriously happy. Also, the still the best Walleye fisherman and home mechanic I have ever known. So you think these people should not be allowed to be teachers(or probably even on public) because you and your religious ilk feel uncomfortable? Seeing and being around transgender people does not make kids change gender. How many children convert because they have a teacher of a different religion? HIding children in a bubble does not do them well in the long run. Oh yeah fuck you. Self-identification and feelings have everything to do with gender.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1128 by Phat, posted 10-27-2022 12:18 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1133 by Phat, posted 10-27-2022 9:15 AM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 5.4
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Message 1132 of 3694 (900376)
10-27-2022 8:35 AM
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Reply to: Message 1129 by Phat
10-27-2022 12:45 AM
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Re: Camp Lake O' Fire.
Phat writes: ringo writes: Jesus doesn't seem to agree with you. He seems to be keeping score. Nonsense. The whole reason that Jesus came back was to keep the score from becoming a rout. My hope would be that if a messiah and savior did come down from heaven that a part of his message would be about the importance of not keeping score. Keeping score leads to settling scores. But maybe I'm wrong to be thinking in that direction. There are all those books and movies that are in essence about adding up people's scores to see if they get into heaven. The oldest one I'm aware of is Heaven Can Wait in 1943 starring Don Ameche, but it's a very common theme, there must be older. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1129 by Phat, posted 10-27-2022 12:45 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1307 by dwise1, posted 11-07-2022 3:34 AM | | Percy has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Emerging From Under Our Rocks
Theodoric, off on another name-calling rant writes: Because of fucks like you she struggles every day with her mental health. I beg your pardon. I too have gay and transgender people in my own family. What's more, I work with several non-binary individuals. And finally, you don't even know me well enough to label me as anything apart from what I say. God forbid anyone ever have an opinion at EvC that differs from the secular humanist, progressive, and oh-so-politically correct group opinion of the peanut gallery! 
At the age of 54 she started gender reassignment. She has known since he was 12 that she identified as a girl. And that's not what I am complaining about. Hey, when I was around 9 or 10, I loved to dress up in my mother's clothes. I wore her silky pantyhose and I imagined myself to be a proper English Lady by the name of Lady Dibblety. Nobody said anything to me about whether or not it was OK to be a woman or experience another gender outlook. My point is that if they had, it may well have encouraged me to take a different path. We need strong role model teachers...not insecure ones still searching for their own identity. That's all I meant. (Perhaps I am unduly influenced by conservatives like Ben Shapiro, I will admit.) I do not like the progressive platform at all, as it (you all) seeks to redefine the rules and rewrite human and social expression in its own image. Your first mistake was in dismissing the "God" idea in the first place. You need an authority higher than yourselves. All of the education in the world won't make you individually or collectively a replacement for a wise and loving Creator.
She has transitioned and identifies completely as a woman, but is still in a long-term (19-year) relationship with a woman. She was always happy seeming, but now she is gloriously happy. Also still the best Walleye fisherman and home mechanic I have ever known. Fair enough. You have a good story to tell. I would respect and have no problem with your friend. I will say, however, that there are many bad stories for every good one and that it is far too simplistic to blame the authoritarian and narrow-minded political Right.
So you think these people should not be allowed to be teachers(or probably even in public) because you and your religious ilk feel uncomfortable? No. If anything, all teachers need to learn more about psychology, sociology, and sensitivity. What my rant is directed at is the whole liberal idea that morality and personal expression should be based solely on feelings and societal norms. (which are fluid and ever-changing.) And I will say that many so-called "normal" teachers in the conservative camp usually have more skeletons in their own closets than do the progressives. They likely need sensitivity training even more than liberally minded teachers do...(in general)
Seeing and being around transgender people does not make kids change gender. No, but it makes it ok to do so. More kids will be encouraged to express their individuality and creativity with no input from their own parents. This may result in more than a few premature conclusions and mistakes which will hurt them later on. And to be fair, the same goes with children that are or were religiously indoctrinated by a teacher or authority figure/role model as well. HIding children in a bubble does not do them well in the long run. Nor does telling them that there is no standard higher than their own imagination, fed by a progressive culture with no leader.
Oh yeah fuck you. Back atcha old man. On my worst day, I could best you at chess, philosophy, and morality. But unlike you, I will never suggest that you live under a rock.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9208 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Message 1134 of 3694 (900392)
10-27-2022 9:50 AM
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Reply to: Message 1133 by Phat
10-27-2022 9:15 AM
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Religious trolling not worth responding
Maybe others will
On my worst day, I could best you at chess, philosophy, and morality
Whatever. The only philosophy you know is christian apologia. I and others find your morality repugnant. My 13 year old would kick your ass in chess. I struggle to beat him.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1133 by Phat, posted 10-27-2022 9:15 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1135 by Phat, posted 10-27-2022 9:51 AM | | Theodoric has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Re: Religious trolling not worth responding
My 13-year-old would kick your ass in chess. I struggle to beat him. Beautiful!  You have been a wise teacher to your offspring. More power to him.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1134 by Theodoric, posted 10-27-2022 9:50 AM | | Theodoric has not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 5.4
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Message 1136 of 3694 (900417)
10-27-2022 11:35 AM
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Reply to: Message 1017 by GDR
10-17-2022 3:57 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: There can be a good argument made that acts of selfless love by an atheist are a purer form of worship, or service, to God than what is done by a theist. Put another way, an atheist's motivation to do good is unlikely to be adulterated by delusions of supernatural rewards. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1017 by GDR, posted 10-17-2022 3:57 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1214 by GDR, posted 10-31-2022 2:10 PM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 1137 of 3694 (900433)
10-27-2022 12:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 1127 by Phat
10-27-2022 12:13 AM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Phat writes: First of all it says "then". Not now. You liberals think that once a goat always a goat.
it has nothing to do with being liberal. Why would you even say that? Nobody is suggesting that metaphoric goats can't turn into metaphoric sheep. But Jesus was pretty clear that there WILL be metaphoric goats at the Judgement.
Phat writes: It also says depart from me you cursed. It does NOT imply that Jesus cursed them.
It SAYS it flat out. If I call you a conservative bastard, who is calling you a conservative bastard?
Phat writes: The fact is, they cursed themselves.
Stop it.
Phat writes: Finally, it implies that hell was created for the devil and his angels. Not humans.
Why can you not understand something so kindergarten-basic? IT DOESN'T MATTER whom hell was "created for". If you go to work and shoot your boss and you tell the judge, "I didn't buy this gun to shoot my boss. I bought it to hunt deer," do you think he'll let you off. It doesn't matter what the original intent was. What matters is the ultimate use. And by the way, your God is supposedly omniscient, so He should have known what He was ultimately going to use hell for.
Phat writes: I would agree, however, that demonic spirits corrupt unrepentant humans and cause them to become goats.
Agree with whom? I have told you many times that there are no demonic spirits. What causes you to become a goat is not an external entity. It's all on you.
Phat writes: You are right that not all will repent and self-correct.
Then why do you keep bringing up this nonsense about no goats in hell?
Phat writes: They will bejudged by their behavior and by which inner demons they kept.
Again, no inner demons. Just human selfishness supported by conservative politics.
Phat writes: Which make them cursed.
It's Jesus who makes them cursed.
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1127 by Phat, posted 10-27-2022 12:13 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 1138 of 3694 (900435)
10-27-2022 12:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 1128 by Phat
10-27-2022 12:18 AM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Phat writes: Self-identification and feelings have NOTHING to do with it.
Self-identification and feelings have EVERYTHING to do with how we should treat people.
Phat writes: Then why do we allow non-binary teachers?
Why do we allow black teachers? Isn't there a danger that they will teach the children that it's okay to be black?
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1128 by Phat, posted 10-27-2022 12:18 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 1139 of 3694 (900437)
10-27-2022 12:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 1129 by Phat
10-27-2022 12:45 AM
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Re: Camp Lake O' Fire.
Phat writes: ringo writes: Jesus doesn't seem to agree with you. He seems to be keeping score.
Nonsense. The whole reason that Jesus came back was to keep the score from becoming a rout.
You contradict yourself. If Jesus came back to adjust the score, He must be keeping score.
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1129 by Phat, posted 10-27-2022 12:45 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 1140 of 3694 (900445)
10-27-2022 12:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 1133 by Phat
10-27-2022 9:15 AM
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Re: Emerging From Under Our Rocks
Phat writes: And finally, you don't even know me well enough to label me as anything apart from what I say.
Homer Simpson:
quote:
If you're going to get mad at me every time I do something stupid, then I guess I'll just have to stop doing stupid things.
Phat writes: God forbid anyone ever have an opinion at EvC that differs from the secular humanist, progressive, and oh-so-politically correct group opinion of the peanut gallery!
Jesus would indeed forbid that.
Phat writes: We need strong role model teachers...not insecure ones still searching for their own identity.
Too bad Charles Manson is dead. According to you, he would have made a great teacher.
Phat writes: Perhaps I am unduly influenced by conservatives like Ben Shapiro, I will admit.
Yes. You are. Stop that.
Phat writes: I do not like the progressive platform at all, as it (you all) seeks to redefine the rules and rewrite human and social expression in its own image.
Yes. Let's change that rule about having to return escaped slaves to their owners. Let's change that rule about black people having their own water fountains. (My first exposure to the whole idea of segregation was in a book called The Sugar Creek Gang Flies to Cuba. A group of boys from Sugar Creek, Minnesota, won a trip to (pre-Castro) Cuba. On the trip to Miami, they had to change trains somewhere south of Macie-Dixie and they were charmed to see two water fountains, "white" and "colored". They were disappointed to learn that the "colored" fountain had ordinary "white" water.) So yeah, you go ahead and fight to "conserve" those lovely old rules.
Phat writes: Your first mistake was in dismissing the "God" idea in the first place. You need an authority higher than yourselves.
Clearly not, since YOUR "higher authority is taking you down such an ugly road.
Phat writes: All of the education in the world won't make you individually or collectively a replacement for a wise and loving Creator.
Ain't no such thing as a "wise and loving Creator". The God you preach is an ugly conservative bastard.
Phat writes: What my rant is directed at is the whole liberal idea that morality and personal expression should be based solely on feelings and societal norms.
What would you base it on?
Phat writes: Nor does telling them that there is no standard higher than their own imagination, fed by a progressive culture with no leader.
You're spouting conservative (regressive) propaganda again. Progressives actually have a HIGHER standard than the one you suggest that is imposed by an alien overlord. Will you ever learn that the alien overlord's agenda is not for our benefit?
Phat writes: On my worst day, I could best you at chess, philosophy, and morality.
Your morality is abysmal. Your philosophy is inconsistent and hare-brained. As for chess, I don't know about Theodoric I myself am a terrible player. But I have the same approach to chess that i have here - shoot everything that moves. My brother is a ranked chess player and I can scare the bejeebers out of him. I can't beat him but I can let him know he played.
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1133 by Phat, posted 10-27-2022 9:15 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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